I was happy to see this thread the other day as a fairly newcomer to the forum I came here seeking advice on both rec-kayaks and budget canoes. I was fairly serious about wanting to learn more and my searches if I didn’t know better before hand, informed me don’t waste your money they are junk the family canoes are heavy tubs that should be used for garden planters and rec-kayaks are death traps hidden as a toy and nothing more.
I made my post as number 2 and the thread was tracking fairly well for a couple more posts when the comic relief and the pink flamingos came into the mix. Now I can add this thread in with the other 500 that told me nothing.
For some reason they are selling millions of these >$1000 rec-kayaks and canoes and yes they are going to new paddlers and most of them don’t know what they are doing. So we make a joke out of it and they pass thru this forum saying I guess they don’t think much of them and leave. Then they come out on my little river with their PFD stuck behind their seat like everyone else is doing. Disregard the weather warnings because they have no knowledge of where something like that would be posted, get sucked under a down tree and drown. Then in my local paper I read how dangerous the river is and it claimed another young person and no one should ever be on it. Then someone will post here how another rec-kayak caused a drowning.
If these boats are an entry point into the sport I feel we should take them serious. Around here it is what people are going to buy. The $200 ones don’t look much different than the $700 ones, but IMO there is a world of difference especially with adults in them as the cheap ones weight capacities are really pushing it. The mindset is why buy more PFD than the 12 buck horse collar because they are only there if you get checked.
It would be nice to see even one thread where someone takes them serious and shows people how to maybe even make them safer and how to fit one to the person, talk about tracking and paddling. I was in walmart and I see a guy about 280# 6’2” looking at a $200 rec-kayak. I stopped and was looking at the one next to it and asked him if he was thinking about it for one of his kids? He said no for himself I pointed out it was rated for 200# but in reality anyone over about 130# would be pushing it. I told him there are some down at the sport store for around $400 that would be sized better for him but what he really needs would be more like $600 and they don’t sell them in our town. He said thanks and I said stay safe maybe I’ll see you floating by soon. He asked what I had and I told him a 14’7” canoe. He looked shocked and said really can they go on the river? I said sure can they are a blast and I don’t get stuck on every rocky spot I float right over them.
Maybe I should have suggested he get a 10 person pink flamingo.
Bud, there have been some constructive discussions on here about rec kayaks. But probably the most useful resource is a series of on the water test paddles done by an outfitter guide with Headwaters Kayak in Redding, California. He buys kayaks in various price ranges (like under $300 and under $500) from big box outfitters and then actually demonstrates, critiques and compares them. He has found some surprisingly decent boats and some that are a complete waste and even dangerous. I think this was a great thing for him to do and usually refer people who are insistent on buying a cheap kayak new to the videos.
Thanks #willowleaf I had not seen that site and reviews and they make a good addition linked to this thread. I feel that guy really hit the high points and he brushed on adding flotation to the rec-kayaks and urged staying swimming distance to shore. I know why he didn’t but would have been great if he did swamp them say with and without some added flotation just to show people how imposable a good day on the water can turn bad with a boat full of water and what advantages the flotation can make.
For the most parts I can see where the frequent posters don’t want to talk about entry level boats and likewise I read a lot of the advanced boat threads and enjoy them but choose not to comment as it is topics I’m learning about but still don’t have any first hand experience with. I would hope every entry level boat thread didn’t digress as fast as they do.
I’ve been paddling for most of my life. When I was 13, I bought a 9ft Old Town Otter kayak (having been taught to kayak and self-rescue at camp, and growing up around paddle craft). Within a season realized what I had wasn’t up to my skill or my friends’ pace. A year later I bought a 12.5 ft Perception Acadia. I still have it, and I still paddle it frequently; I’ve taken it out on some big water bodies on calm days, wearing a PFD, with a bilge pump, bow flotation (it has a stern hatch), knowledge of shipping lanes, an ability to self-rescue, and a healthy respect for when I shouldn’t be on a large body of water. That boat is classed as a ‘rec boat’ but it has served me extremely well from mild swell to Class I rivers, lakes, and a lot of swamp dragging.
I also cringe at the ignorant folks buying box store garbage bins shaped like kayaks, mostly because they don’t know how unsafe they’re being. But as others have said above, not all rec boats are created equally, and not all folks have the same objectives for their paddling.
I once read an article stating that the kayakers most likely to get in trouble, sometimes very serious trouble, were novices and highly experienced paddlers - the former for obvious reasons and the latter because years and years without incident can breed a false sense of security and over-confidence in one’s abilities. I don’t recall where I read that (maybe Sea Kayaker magazine?) or what data supported the contention but it sounds very plausible.
The difference is the experienced guy will know what to do to best undo the problem he got himself into. The new guy will likely not have a clue and will likely make his problem worse not better.
I like the idea of affordable boats that introduce people to watersports in a safe and efficient way.
More specialized environments require more specialized boats
An emphasis on the pfd and importance of additional flotation is often lacking. Basic paddle education isn’t provided. I don’t give the sellers a free pass. It is important that beginners understand and get good advice from experienced boaters. Sadly, that may not be the case when you buy from a big box store.
I’ve often browsed Headwaters’ other videos and they also do a great job dissecting the features of assorted models of all kinds of kayaks and even reviewing vintage boats that one might find in searching for used models. I’ve never seen anyone else offer such great insights on kayaks themselves, down to every little detail that most of us would not even think to check for. Can’t think of a better way for the newcomer to the sport to get a good intro handle to the whys of boat selection. Even as somebody who’s owned and used close to 2 dozen boats over 20 years I have learned things from them.
Amen to decent paddling education and the woeful lack of it at a lot of places selling boats. I bought at an outfitter who made sure I had not just a PFD but also the proper flotation for my boat and a bilge pump.
I remember overhearing a convo at another outfitter, in which the buyer wanted 9ft low end rec kayaks to take out in Long Island Sound. The outfitter responded ‘yeah, those kayaks are non-recoverable. You take them out on the Sound and you may not make it back. Those aren’t for the Sound.’ He wasn’t beating around the bush on safety.
My point exactly Monkey head, though exaggerated for comic value. The humor or the point seemed to ruffle some feathers. Perhaps the point was too subtle. We get that kind of optimistic my new boat can do it all enthusiasm often enough. We also often get criticized for the resulting advice.
As the OP pointed out some people are perfectly happy with a rec Kayak. I’m perfectly happy for them. If they ask for advice I sometimes give it. If it isn’t what they want to hear that’s OK too.
In the first photo I am pushing the limits with a $150 Pelican 100. My choice, and I am sure I would have been told not to on here if I had asked. That I am not wearing a helmet would have been a proper criticism. I had added floatation, and have tons of on and in the water experience. The second photo is where I was less than a year later. Having realized what I really needed for me to be satisfied.
It’s true some are perfectly happy to paddle their rec kayak forever more, and some are not. This thread didn’t start out about what is a good rec kayak, but lets be supportive. We are until someone wants to paddle their Flamingo across the Atlantic. That’s my point. I hope it brought more smiles than frowns.
I think the article about some very experienced paddlers getting in trouble talked about how Heuristic thinking based on a history of past experience can be a trap. This is because the conditions that arise after the decision were outside the experiences on which they based their decision, and the confidence this experience gave them that they were right in that decision.
It was years ago that I read this, and it left a valuable impression.
They really need navigation skills crossing the Atlantic and being rescued by the Alaska Coast Guard.
I will say those flamingos have some range.
I just read that was a rec-flamingo no wonder they had trouble.
As a kid I talked my dad into taking me to the Army surplus store and I bought a real frogman air mattress likely left over from WW2 for 50 cents. Rubberized canvas with a huge black rubber mouthpiece to blow it up. I wish I had photos of me on it with its tapered shape. I soloed that out in Lake Erie a good half mile towing my PFD a 14” auto inner tube. Safety was my middle name.
That’s a great feature someone can come and watch a 6 minute video and learn a lot, but there is no interaction no place for me to give some ideas I may have come up with or for me to ask a question like is a $130 walmart rec-kayak as good as a $1200 OT rec-kayak.
Bud, paddlers here have gotten that kind of feedback from others here - questions about whether some rec boats are more worthy contenders than others. For ex Pelican is often regarded as having poor quality for their material.
But those are people who come in giving information that indicates a rec boat is an apt choice for their paddling etc. And do not start a fight if they propose a less appropriate environment and are told it is not the best choice.
There are a couple of folks circulating on the Board right now, SOTConvert is one, who have a lot of posts indicating more resentment than interest in learning from others here. And it is safe to say that SOTConvert has zero idea of the depth of experience and paddling skills of some of the people he are arguing with. Not me - I am a rank beginner compared to some of these folks.
For the record, I have repeatedly stated what I intended to use the kayak for and that has been repeatedly ignored.
My intention is to use it for purposes that are very in line with a rec kayak. To then try and tell me I need something intended for the open ocean is not being helpful. The Wilderness Systems Pungo is one of the highest rated rec kayaks. It isn’t some crappy Pelican.
I take advice very well, when it’s meant constructively. When an obvious insult is included with the advice, I question the intent , Take a look at some of the responses to my first couple posts and tell me that everyone was trying to be helpful. My post about empty wagons was in response to those replies I got.
You say some of the people I’m conversing with are real experts, but I know enough about canoes and kayak to know the advice they are giving me isn’t sound.
SOT C ,From reading your posts , you only know what you’ve read about kayaks.
There are paddlers here who over time have proven that what they know what they’re doing.
If they haven’t gotten tired of these kinds of posts and left.
