Hi, my name is Dave and

Paddlers' Place
#183

I am just going to insert my stance on wearing a PFD at all times. One of my central life principles is establishing automatic habits and routines that simplify and even make safe my everyday life.

My kitchen is always tidy because I automatically clean up after myself as I am cooking and after a meal is done. When I bring in my mail I automatically sort it, toss the junk and open the bills and put them in a folder with weekly tabs for payment. I always lock my car and house entries with the key, not by setting the lock from the inside (and have never locked myslelf out of house or car.)

I have countless other routines I have trained myself to do without really having to make the effort to think about them any more. I ALWAYS automatically fasten my seatbelt in a car before starting it, even if I am just moving it across the street during street cleaning days. My 35 year main career was in construction. From my first day in that work I put on safety shoes, a hard hat and safety glasses and never failed to put them on EVERY time I entered any job site from them on, even if I was stopping for 5 minutes to drop off my crews’ paychecks. I would have felt uneasy, even panicked, if I was not suitably equipped in that environment. I always put on safety glasses, long pants and sturdy shoes before mowing my lawn or runnng the weedwhacker. If I have a hammer in my hand I have already automatically put on safety glasses, even if I am only hanging a picture frame on my wall.

Whenever I am launching in a canoe or kayak I don’t have to stop and think about whether or not I should have or do have any piece of kit with me. I am always wearing my PFD with pockets stocked with basic day and night safety and comfort gear, have a spare paddle under the deck lines, have inflated the float bags and/or sponsons if I am using one of my folders, have a bilge pump, paddle float, etc. aboard. Yeah, chances of my needing any of this stuff are probably slim to none in many of my outings. Part of this development of habits was from being a wikderness sports trip leader and guide in my younger days as well as an apprenticeship instructor in the building trades. When you are instructing and responsible for others, it’s important to set the best example for them as well as not be disracted having to itemize whether you yourself are properly outfitted.

And here’s the other thing, I am basically lazy. I don’t want to have to waste my time and energy deciding what I “might” need or not need. Nor do I want any of those “oh, crap, I should have done/brought/worn that” moments. And those do occur when you least expect them. I would rather be moderately “inconvenienced” by what someone else might call “safety overkill” by having myself conditioned to always be outfitted and prepared than take the chance that being randomly selective every time I go to do something and finding myself up schitt creek without the proverbial paddle (or with a staple in my eyeball like my coworker who lost his sight from neglecting to wear safety glasses at home while insulating his basement.)

Having routines makes life simpler. And safer.

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#184

I find this a good discussion and was the first to reply to it for the first day or so. Not because I agreed or disagreed as I actually did a little of both but because I think it will be a great topic for newcomers to read and think about and they are the ones that need to think about this.

I don’t have a worry at all about any of the frequent posters here and how they handle their risk management. IMO the people posting are all serious paddlers some conservative and some enjoy activates that would be called high risk, but they are aware of the risk and manage the risk how they feel is best. If you know the danger of standing in a canoe and poling WW and want to do it I’m happy for you, just as I’m happy for the guy that wants to boat and swim without a PDF in calm, warm, shallow water.

Where I live this is not the case. The people I see on the river have zero risk assessment skills the thought has likely not crossed their mind. They are the people that jokes are made of like famous last words. (Hold my beer and watch this.) Every year there are numerous rescues and injuries and every few year someone drowns. IMO it is 99.9% avoidable if some form of risk assessment was applied and followed. These people will never be here reading this or taking place in the conversation. These threads are really preaching to the choir.

The consequence of this is bad for the pastime of paddling and when people see we have boats (non paddlers) they try and warn us of all the horror stories they remember from the last 50 years of people drowning. I believe this is when people start thinking laws are needed to try and help.

Willowleaf talks about routines and I’m much the same. People mostly young people I see on the river are forming bad routines and PFDs are only a small part of it. It starts with tossing 6-8 $200 rec-kayaks in the back of the pickup and not securing them. Not paying attention to the weather and runs thru to hopefully making it to the other end and most of the time they do, so that’s positive reinforcement to do it again.

#185

Perfectly reasonable, we all have our way to get through our day to day.

#186

16 lb is the flotation / buoyancy is the measurement.
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#187

As usual you make some excellent points.

Perhaps I should have started this thread with "Hi, my name is Dave and…I make a different risk assessment than you. It may have been beneficial to new paddlers reading this thread to develop a good risk assessment/management related to their paddling; skills, equipment, fitness and related capabilities.

There’s no saving the “hold my beer watch this” crowd because that isn’t limited to water activities and they aren’t listening anyway.

#188

That’s correct. I have only been here a short time and was new to paddling but not to boating growing up like you just a short walk from in my case Lake Erie. I came here not knowing much and I found this site a plethora of information and soon learned the 100% PFD philosophy. On power boats on the lake we always had PFDs ready and often wore them when the weather would change rapidly and we were beating our way home. But Fishing in the lake when calm or diving off the bow for a swim it wasn’t anything we did. I understand on a small paddle boat the idea of flipping and ending up swamped in the water was much higher than in a large power boat.

Like I mentioned above my target readers here are sensible newcomers to paddling that are here wanting to do it correctly. Likely reading and never posting. They are I’m sure conflicted like I was when they go out on a lake or river and see no one wearing a PFD. They need to figure out based on their skills and the water they are on their own risk assessment and need to know what it is like to dump and reenter their boat in open water. The question of PFD could well be cut and dry and always wear one. The question of alone or with someone and getting to shore or back in the emptied boat is another. If you dump a half mile from shore alone and have a swamped canoe next to you the PFD might keep you alive but it wont get you to shore or back in your boat. Another person that knows what to do and some proper equipment might.

#189

not to sound ‘elitest’, but I wish the data could also be broken down by kayak type & safety equip aboard.

  • Rec boat Vs SeaKayak
  • pfd on, Sprayskirt on, pump handy, radio, spare paddle, etc.

I know, too much detail, I would be happy if they just specified whether the kayak involved was a rec boat or a seakayak.

#190

Whether a post is provocative never enters my mind. I responded to the topic of when is it appropriate to wear a vest. I reacted to the question. It raised some great points. How each of us assimilates the info is our prerogative. Members can agree or disagree, and express displeasure, but it’s presumptuous to believe someone has to comply with an opinion. Some topics create strong objection due to personal experiences and unpleasant recall. Such reactions could be disabling, like getting water in my nose; it could scar some people so they never want to try WW kayaking. Or the person may fear bumping their head on a rock recalling experiences from multiple falls from fast bicycles. Evel Knevel died at age 69, from pulmonary disease - too much ice cream?

The reason I won’t go out with someone not wearing a vest, is that I don’t want the responsible if something goes wrong; the trip wouldn’t be pleasant. In this thread, I only recall mention of not wearing a vest when water is shallow. On the other hand, I have no objection to anyone kayaking across the Atlantic without a vest. It doesn’t matter unless its my boat. Does that sound . . . Shallow, (honestly, no pun)? I may not know you, but I accept that you have the right to make a decision. If I come across you, a Stranger to me, I’ll paddle with you, but I’ll point out the danger and I’ll do my best to protect you if something happens. Rescue techniques is another topic, and that’s a real danger in “deep” water where everyone should be famiar with the reaction of a panic stricken person*.

Be careful of advocacy, you could lose. I was at a family gathering, talking about a kayak trip to Poole Island on the edge of the Chesspeake Bay shipping* and fishing areas. Specific spots can become choppy. A power boater overheard me and said, “Why are you going out there. It isn’t safe!” I laughed and agree that it can be dangerous. He said, power boaters can’t see you in a little boat. My jaw dropped, and I replied, “So you’re the danger, because you can’t see a red 14 ft boat (actually it’s blue, but I didn’t want to diminish my point) with a person wearing a red life jacket.” I went through every object from coal barges, to other power boats, little sea scooters, 6 mph bouys, swimmers, submerged logs, crab trap floats, a school of dolphins, a sea gull, to figure out what he could see. Apparently, the kayak was the problem, even if it was festooned with christmas lights, whirleygigs*, and an orange pennant. I had no desire to discuss a power boat bans or outlawing beer addled boat drivers. I accepted that his actions were out of my control. So I asked if he would see an orange flare gun aimed at his windshield from whites-of-the-eye range, or should I get one for each hand, on a vest* with cross draw holsters. He still didn’t think I should be out there. Ended in a “draw” no pun intended but we each had a course of action and it gave him a reluctant reason to look closely for red 14 ft kayaks. After that day, I noticed he’d scanned my personal to see if I was going heeled with twin, break open flare pistols.

The brother of a friend was killed when a power boat rammed and climbed over the deck of his sail boat . . . But that’s no reason to fear large boats. I does make me wary when they bear down on me. But they’re actually trying to judge my speed and heading to decide on passing front or back of me. I know law stipulates rule for stand-on/give-way vessels*.

I don’t fear the bay. I fear arrogant fools on auto pilot while they fish in a cooler for another cool one. I’ve been so dehydrated. I’d drink a beer if it floated by, but what are the odds*.

  • attention directed to posts with related topic.
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#191

Rec-kayak compared to sea-kayak would be good to know but both of those stats would come with a strong bias not pertaining to the boat but pertaining to the skill of the boater. Most people new to kayaking start out with a rec-boat and most people in sea-kayaks are committed to knowing what they are doing at least to a higher degree. It could be a case if you handed out free sea-kayaks to new boaters with no skills that number of deaths would be sky high.

There is also the issue of how each is outfitted. Our rec-kayak came with a sealed stern bulkhead and hatch and I added full bow floatation it is a higher end rec-boat and people spending a little more money might be prone to understand safety a little better.

Same can be said for canoes I can’t remember the last time I saw a young person in a canoe on our river. Mostly older people and when you do see one he’s with dad or granddad keeping an eye on them.

#192

More detail would be nice, it sure would provide some meaning to what statistics are available

For instance, how do you interpret/explain the variation in percentage of drowning victims wearing PFDs between canoes, kayaks and paddleboards?

Canoe: 42 fatalities, 36 by drowning, of the 36 drowning victims 33 were not wearing a lifejacket.

Kayak: 112 fatalities, 95 by drowning, of 95 drowning victims 70 were not wearing a lifejacket, 3 were unknown concerning wear.

SUP: 10 fatalities, all by drowning, 6 were not wearing a lifejacket.

All of us could probably offer good guesses, but without more data that’s all we have is guesses.

#193

Good posts. A more focused post might be: the number of drownings in knee high water, waist high water, and water over 8 feet. Or the number of drownings among swimmers with and without life jackets, how far from shore the drowning occurred, how many broke a neck from diving, and how many involved alcohol. I don’t know the numbers, but I recall being shocked when someone told me that more toddlers drown in spackle buckets and toilets than in swimming pools. I DO NOT know if that assertion is correct.

Correction on the topic of Type III PDF: Regarding a previous post, a member mentioned not being familiar with the term extended immersion, or some such term. I think I should have used the term - For inland water near shore, where chance of rescue is good. Not suitable for extended survival in rough conditions . . . May require the wearer to tread water to keep head above water . . . (Paraphrased).

Be careful about thoughts of legal restrictions. If required by law
to wear a Type 1 PDF, I’d probably quit kayaking. Not to diminish the seriousness, but I fear somebody might suggest sensors in a hot tub that shuts off and drains the tub if alcohol is detected and a Type I PDF to keep head above water. There could be legislation to require a helmet if using a bathtub, due to the number of drownings and injuries in tubs. I was actually shocked at the number of toddlers that drown in 5 gallon buckets and toilets. I recall seeing legislation suggesting weight sensitive toilet seat locks. The issue does have merit.

Please excuse me in advance, but if anyone tells me that it’s a bad idea to iron my shirt while sitting in a tub . . . I will retract that comment.

#194

I haven’t found much need to respond to this thread. It just all seems so self evident.
When we bought our first tandem canoe we also bought two “super duper” seat cushions. Surprisingly I don’t have a photo of them. They are bright yellow, and even have HELP written in large letters on them. One is now on my sailboat to throw to a man overboard, and one I gave to my son. They are almost 50 years old and well probably last another 50. We bought the canoe, paddles, and seat cushions at Mohawk in Longwood FL. That was the only floatation at that time required by FL Law for canoes. About a year latter we also bought 2 Sterns life vests. I saw the need to wear them even back then. Did I all the time? No.

Paddling alone depends on many factors, but for many it can be the only viable option much of the time. Apples and Oranges different than wearing a PFD. I paddle alone, but not as often as in the past.

It is rare that I don’t wear a PFD on any boat these days. It’s the smart thing to do. However, on occasion in my old Mohawk canoe with paddles that live at the pond we own I may decide to paddle when I don’t have one with me. Perhaps not a smart thing to do. That is the only time these days I haven’t worn one. Perhaps, now that I think about it, I need to store an old PFD in a plastic bag with that canoe. You roll the dice, and take your chances. I prefer to put the odds in my favor. If life was a casino I want to be the house.

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#195

Sorry raisins, I repeated some of your suggestions (specifically alcohol). I also have a pump and skirt I never use. What I learned most from this is that I need to get in water with my vest to find out how much it offers in buoyancy. I family event is planned for labor day. I’m shocked by my own ignorance and before the event will coordinate for everybody to try the vests in a pool. We all can swim.

#196

oddly enough, red boats are supposedly the least visable to see…

#197

Drowning is the leading cause of death between the age of 1-4. I have no idea if that is in toilets, buckets or pools.

The legal issue is the one thing out of this whole thread that actually bothers me. I don’t know how someone who participates in an activity that many see as risky would want a law to address “risky” behavior. There is a law that would completely eliminate drownings associated with paddlesports, and it isn’t a PFD requirement, it is outlawing paddlesports. I can see the t-shirts now.; “If you outlaw paddles only outlaws will have paddles”

#198

The question of paddling alone should be do you make any modifications to what you do when you paddle alone?

In my case I do.

#199

Good question. I do too. Being alone requires different mitigation strategies to address risks that paddling presents. For example, approaching a open water crossing or rapids (from a canoeing perspective) in a tandem canoe is much different than in a solo canoe.

#200

Solo I will look at a lake crossing differently than together and likely I will paddle around.

About a month ago We saw a older lady alone out in the middle of the lake as we passed she said hi and we passed small talk she was in a rec-kayak and told us she just bought it and it was her first day paddling. I said oh wow I don’t know if I would be out here alone as it would be a long swim in pulling the boat if i went over. She said oh dear I didn’t think of that. She asked if we would mind if she paddled with us.

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#201

Yes, this is some good risk assessment discussion. Your post made me think about not just a solo vs. tandem, but also one vs. two boats. It certainly adds available risk mitigation when there are multiple boats, but it can also add risk due to varying skill levels.

Example: I used to paddle WW kayak many years ago, and I noticed that paddlers often got in over their heads because of actual or perceived peer pressure.

#202

Well, Search and rescue may or may not have happened, maybe they weren’t “looked for”… but there’s a lot to suggest that some sort of respect for the dead has been practiced for quite a long while indeed, probably before fire usage… certainly before canoeing. For example:

Voyageurs may not have searched much though - they were on a schedule. Another safety practice, placing safety before schedule, they didn’t practice which we now do, or ought to.

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