Hi, my name is Dave and

[Jyak]

I heard that and the last thing I need is a new t-shirt. My sister’s boat is a 140 Mango Tsunami. I get tired of hearing her say I hate that blue boat, I can never see it. I tell her that’s because you’re looking behind you.

She does pretty well. I keep suggesting she should adopt my paddle style which is more core, rather than arm, but when thunder rolls, I can’t catch her. I’m still trying to build up stamina after a shoulder injury. She’s 76 and pushed 4.2 mph for about 1.5 miles head on into a 15 mph forecast winds that I know was at minimum 10 mph because of cat paws and white caps. I was crying uncle after half the distance. She finally slowed to 3.9 mph on the last 1/2 mile leg. Her boat rides better, because she is well under the safe limit, while mine is just under. My 145 is much drier now. Since I lost 30 lbs, I can handle at least 6 inch higher waves.

The 140 Pungo is comparable for speed if you want a canoe like open boat. I don’t know how a canoe compares for speed, but I plan to find out. The same size Pungo can only handle half the waves that the Tsunami can handle, but I’ll go places in Pungo that I wouldn’t take a canoe. That only applies to my recent limited experience with a 16 ft Old Town. It’s limited, because I found the kayaks hardier, especially in the wind. I more than welcome comments or comparisons.

I saw the Eddyline 145. It looked like a nice boat. If I recall, 24 or 24.5 wide, but a 300 lb max capacity. Compared to 350 lbs max of 145 Tsunami. If the weight ratings are comparitive, it might ride low for a paddler in the 230 lb range.

[Jyak]

Bud 16425, nice catch with the 1st timer and gracious gesture.

I wanted to do a 24 mile round trip over open water, but turned around after about 1/4 mile because existing conditions were only tolerable, and I had never know conditions to improve, only worsen. From comments, I believe I did a good thing. A land following route was closer to 27 or 30 miles, but the conditions or my mood never sync’ed to try it. At least I’m still here.

[tdaniel]

Dave, I’m the “adamant one” only if we are paddling together. As an individual you have the right to do what you want and ultimately you will live or die by your own decisions. That’s one of the great things about paddle sports. We each get to decide how much risk we want to assume.

You and I have very different views on paddle sport safety. I believe there is some inherent risk in all types paddling. Until we grow gills, I think we are all safer wearing a pfd. That is not my only mitigation strategy but the one at the top of my list.

Let’s revisit something that has already been posted. For me, putting on a pfd is just like fastening the seatbelt. I don’t really notice it. It is a habit. If I could predict with certainty when I would need it then I wouldn’t have to wear it every time I’m in a vehicle. Unfortunately, I can’t and don’t want to predict that. So I just wear it every time and it has become second nature.

It is not choice for me. It is a given.

Have I ever gone down the road without a seatbelt on? I actually respect the shuttle driver who says “I’m an emergency room nurse, my car doesn’t move until every seatbelt is latched”. There is what we do all the time, most of the time, some of the time and what we advocate others should do. I advocate for pfd usage and try to use one all the time when paddling.
,
I love the path of the paddle series but I think Bill did some sketchy stuff. In fact I think he even addresses it in the movie. The lake Superior stuff looked particularly dicey. I’ve done some sketchy stuff in canoes in my 20s.

I’ve had the pleasure to meet some of the folks who did the first descent and named the rapids on the lower gauley river. They came up with names like pure screaming hell, mash, heaven help us. It was a hoot to hear them talk about how they were using a red cross handbook to advance their canoeing. When Bill Mason made a film about paddling, it was a huge leap forward for the sport. Is that where the progression should stop? As an aca instructor trainer pointed out, It is not about “old school” or “new school” but about “best practices”. I like to think we have moved beyond the old red cross manual and even the path of the paddle series when it comes to setting standards for paddling safety.

I can tell you that I’m not the safest bet. I’m older. I’m male. I’ll still run ww where rescue is difficult. I’ll run stuff that is continuous (flush drownings) with wood (strainers), on streams that aren’t dam controlled (high and low water). I’m the kind of guy who very well could show up on the american whitewater accident list. I’ve paddled in the dark, been underdressed, swam a bunch, and done my share of questionable stuff. I try to learn from all that. I try to recognize risks and try to mitigate them. Wearing a pfd has alway been a part of my mitigation strategy.

My pfd usage doesn’t change for a class I body of water. I try to account for the “what if”. In the end, I simply believe the decision to wear the pfd is a good one regardless of what or where you paddle.

People drown and will continue to do so. Wearing a pfd helps reduce the likelihood. It’s just that simple.

[davbart]

I really have no issue with any of that. Matter of fact, I’ve said previously that if in a group paddle I would wear a PFD. Unless it is in the shuttle, I’ll wear a seatbelt, but not the PFD.

Please don’t take this as an effort to change your mind about your PFD usage, but a common theme through this has been “what if”, “the unexpected” or “you never know”. Those things are true for everything we do in life, e.g. driving a car, but sometimes those things are so unlikely or the consequences so trivial it is a waste of time to concern yourself with them. I know the counter would be as you said “we don’t have gills”, but if that becomes the answer then not only would I have to wear a PFD every time I’m in a paddle craft, I’d have to wear one every time I’m in the water swimming or wading. I’m not going to do that either.

Anyway, I know where you stand, and you know where I stand, and as you said “we each get to decide how much risk we want to assume.”

[Jyak]

Dave. Seems like I’ve known you forever. Welcome back. You speak from the heart and have my respect.

[Glenn_MacGrady]

@davbart

I do regularly paddle and swim the bay lakes of eastern North Carolina such as Lake Waccamaw

The only time I was there – it was May – the yellow flies (aka deer flies) were the worst I’ve ever experienced anywhere, smashing into my van windows and sides at the campground like Al Capone with a machine gun. They were attracted to the heat of the van. Thank goodness I sleep in it, because I refused to come out and sign the ranger’s papers. The next morning the wind was wicked and I drove away to Hammocks Beach State Park.

In those days in the South, I wore a hybrid PFD: 8 lbs. of foam flotation that can be pumped up with air to 22 lbs. Very lightweight and comfortable for hot weather.

PFD’s can lose buoyancy as they get decades old and should periodically be tested.

@castoff

When we bought our first tandem canoe we also bought two “super duper” seat cushions. Surprisingly I don’t have a photo of them. They are bright yellow, and even have HELP written in large letters on them.

I have three of those I bought 40 years ago. I still use them use them stacked up as a movable foam saddle to kneel in the center of tandem canoes, which I also used to pole in Florida lakes swamps but never in whitewater.

Unlike my mostly solitary flat water paddling life, my real whitewater paddling was always with highly trained clubs or groups, with possibly a couple of exceptions well within my skill level.

Now, I mostly paddle computer from the safety of my bedroom. The golden years, right. I’ve never felt more in danger.

Country roads, take me home
To the place I belong

[castoff]

I would enjoy reading some of your paddle stories. Anybody with those old seat cushions has to have some good ones. It’s good to see you posting.

[castoff]

Thanks for posting that piece on Homo naledi. You think they can get some DNA from the teeth? It’s so amazing what has been discovered since I was growing up and reading books about early man, and dinosaurs. So much more understanding, and questions answered since then. With even more questions generated. Wonderful stuff. Sometimes looking up at night I still feel a thrill that man walked on the moon. I remember when that was just a dream.

[Jyak]

Just watch a you tube on drainage ditch kayaking. And Dane Jackson in the narrowest cut I’ve ever seen. Marc Ornstein free style canoeing has a paddle as large as the one I used to use, but he could edge that boat and spin it around a 360 with one move of the paddle.

[eckilson]

tdaniel and I come from the same ilk – hardly wallflowers when it comes to risk, but also adamant about PFD usage. I’ve never met tdaniel, but that is pretty typical of the folks that I paddle with.

I was going to let this go, but since this tread has continued I’ll comment. I took a look at Lake Waccamaw on Goggle maps – 5-miles long, 3-miles wide – that is no “duck pond”. Lakes are a place where it is easy to unwittingly find yourself in difficult conditions – calm on the way out, wind and waves on the way back. I know nothing of this lake, but if it is like lakes in the northeast it doesn’t look like a place where you wouldn’t wear a PFD. Maybe you will stay close to shore, maybe you will stay in shallow water, maybe the weather will cooperate and the wind won’t pick up, maybe you will avoid boat traffic. But maybe you won’t.

Pull over to shore to take a swim – ok, take the PFD off. But when you get back in the boat I’d expect you to put the PFD back on – for your safety and for mine. If you didn’t, I’d think twice about paddling with you again - for my safety not yours. It may come over as adamant or even militant, but that is just the way it is for me.

[davbart]

“You pay your money, you take your chances”

I’m confident about my chances as you are with yours. I hope we’re both right.

[davbart]

Yep, May isn’t a good time to be at Lake Waccamaw. The flies will take there payment in blood and flesh.

Camping on Bear Island at Hammocks Beach is a great experience. You can feel like it’s your own little island.

[PJC]

@castoff

Thanks for posting that piece on Homo naledi.

Glad you liked it… but it was in reply to something else and is off topic here - I’ll PM you.

[gitchellbob]

New subject matter…

Helmets: for whitewater paddlers, motorcycling, running convoys, or in firefights, and door gunning on a Huey helicopter. I always wore my varied helmets, and they saved my life on several occasions.

Yes, that is a bullet hole in my flight helmet.

Sad to say I lost my old, skid lid I wore bikng in the 60s. Still wearing a bike helmet every time I ride .
Bigtime believer in helmets.
They’re kind of like canoes; you can never have too many…

BOB

[davbart]

Your call, I wouldn’t argue with you, you’ve seen the elephant and you’re here to talk about it.

I should add, anybody who rides a VMAX needs a helmet that’s one hot bike.

My answer to the question; Helmets, in a canoe and in whitewater - yes, on a motorcycle - yes and full face, on a bicycle - it depends. Running convoys - yes, but there was one time I wasn’t sure it’d help if an IED hit the fuel truck I was in.

[PJC]

Felt the need to share… Long ago I happened on a cartoon, an advertisement for Yvon Chouinard’s climbing helmets, if I recall correctly. It shows two rescue workers standing at the base of a cliff. At their feet is a pile of rope, an ice axe, and limbs sticking out every which way. One rescuer is holding a decapitated helmeted head in his hands and is saying," Well, there don’t seem to be any head injuries…"

[castoff]

You might want to consider helmets while in the surf kayaking or rock gardening.

[castoff]

I have a head problem these days that a helmet won’t fix. My head wants to tell my body what to do and my body will say NO!

[Glenn_MacGrady]

I have always believed the drive to the water – some hundreds or even thousands of miles of high speed highway and twisty mountain roads, and many shuttles on mountain goat trails – were almost always more dangerous than any white or flat waters I was driving to paddle.

So, for a couple of years in the 80’s I would wear my whitewater helmet in my van while driving to and from New England mountain rivers. I figured the helmet would protect my precious noggin in a crash better than the back of the driver’s seat and my lap belt. I had no shoulder belt in vehicles in those days and no air bags.

I used to get some very strange looks at traffic lights and in towns, and once a cop asked me why I was wearing a helmet.

I still believe that a helmet would best protect me in a car crash, even in these days of shoulder belts, crumple zones and multiple air bags, but I stopped wearing the helmet in my canoe van after a while and just decided to take the risk and leave it to god.

I do stand in my van all the time, albeit crouched.

[Jyak]

You guys are crazy, but have to say I had those thoughts, but didn’t act on them.

I just watched drainage ditch kayaking and a video of guys riding a wicked 3 ft wide rocky chute. I chastise partners for nor maintaining boat spacing on flat water, but I’m not going to drop a post telling them to stop. If it doesn’t cripple or kill them. They’ll be on this site talking about the good old days, before knees, shoulders, arthritis, backs . . . I thought about getting a go pro to video a paddle session. Play it in fast mode to show how exciting it was.