High angle paddle(too long) with low angle stroke?

I wasn’t going to read this topic then became fascinated by the thoughts it provoked. It also caused me to do a little of my own testing of stroke style with two different length low-angle paddles, a werner and an aquabound. I realize this is the opposite case of the OP. My point is to concur with the thoughts that it is best to test vs make assumptions, as many expressed.

The different stroke styles made a huge difference and the paddle lengths made a difference to an extent, depending on the boat.
Most noticeably,
using a high-angle stroke with these paddles was not efficient and caused some shoulder discomfort.
Using either paddle in any stroke style where I am still extending the blade past my hips resulted in the same discomfort plus occasional numbness in the hands due to neck disc issues.
Neither of those issues arise when I paddle in my more typical low angle style and way that is closer to sound technique (even if still flawed to a degree, but closer to what the paddle is designed for). I’m 5’6" and an athletic lifter/biker, so that mule comment fit to a tee–I could “muscle it” more so it felt like greater effort, but that didn’t translate to better performance when I measured with gps. Long time boater but only a few years yakking.

Fascinating discussion from something I don’t give too many thoughts to daily. No substitute for personal test and evaluation. One size fits all manufacturer charts may be an initial vector but that’s about it.

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After almost twenty years with a single blade in a canoe, I have found the hardest part of transitioning to a double blade in a kayak is developing a good forward stroke. When I started, I simply took the double blade and paddled it like a canoe paddle - vertical shaft, parallel to the keel line and close to the boat. This was a couple of years ago in front of a sit-on-top tandem.

https://vimeo.com/275743209

Definitely a high angle stroke. I have been working at developing something that looks more like a forward kayak stroke - in at the feet, top hand at about eye level, power with torso rotation, and out at the hip. I’m getting better at it - here are some shots of me a few weeks ago (yellow boat, red PFD, blue helmet) with something that looks more like a forward kayak stroke.

https://vimeo.com/997682376

Don’t know if you would call it high angle or low angle - I only do one version of it. I don’t have the muscle memory yet - so if i get nervous or need power I tend to revert back to that old vertical canoe stroke. I use a Werner Shuna paddle - 210 cm, 0º feather.

I was out this weekend with the guy I paddled tandem with in the first video and he said my forward stroke looked more “kayaky”. I took that as a compliment - making progress.

Everybody’s physiology is different. Some have (if the terms are still used and relevant) more fast twitch or slow twitch muscles. Some people are sprinters and some are endurance runners. I feel fortunate to have a course that offers four distinct paddling tracts that are neatly divided into equal quarters. Rather than arguing wha “is” “is” a few members share data. The unfortunate negativity shuts down the public discussion and continues by personal email. I enjoy comparing data with a person who paddles high angle with a feathered blade, one who prefers cheap paddles and Greenlands, and one who wants to learn but is faster and far more advanced than he realizes. Largely due to the differences in style, we’ve all benefitted. We each see improvement, but by taking it off line to avoid the inevitable baseless challenges, only we benefit.

I read everything, because the threads often go off topic to valuable info. Without the aid of a GPS, a heart rate monitor, calculating the time to cover a set distance, knowing you aerobic threshold or cadence, its nearly impossible to assess the performance of a boat, a paddle, or paddling technique. All the Aqua Bound paddles that I’ve seen are designed similar to the mid-line Werner Camano. They have what I call a shovel back method to connect the shaft to the blade. That method isnt consequential to high angle and possible improves and stabilizes the paddle through the power sweep. Then compare that design to the Kalliste or Ikelos blade. The Shovel Back blades have distinct dihedral to stabilize the blade. That feature favors an inexperienced paddler who hasn’t refined correct technique. Water sheds evenly from the face. The very idea makes me grind my teeth. Water should not shed off the paddle face. The blade is suppose to plant and grab water. Th idea of paddling is to offer a blunt presentation to create an opposite reaction that pushes the wedge shape boat through the water, yet advice to go faster suggests pushing, pulling, yanking, stomping to accelerate the paddle. So a paddler says, “this paddle feels smoother through the water . . .” Paddles arent supposed to move!!! FACT! The only movement of a paddle in the water should be at the catch and the exit. I believe PaddleDog52 pointed that out years ago, explaining that when you insert the paddle next to a floating leaf at the catch, the blade should essentially remain next to the leaf when it exits, except for a change in the angle that occurs though the paddle arc. Slippage means wasted energy. On the other hand, if the paddle get a clean catch that doesn’t blunt the flow of water as the boat accelerates forward, slight slippage can serve to balance or mitigate the paddling effort. We don’t have a variable pitch propeller like an airplane. All you can do is vary the stroke to keep the efgort from going anerobic. Most people have 30 minutes of anerobic capacity. When it’s gone, its gone for 24 to 48 hours. All the snicker bars and bananas don’t do a thing except direct bloodflow from muscles to the stomach and intestines to process food. What you eat on your kayak trip is for tomorrow, not to benefit that trip.

Look at the difference between the Camano and the Kalliste. Imagine the turbulence generated as the Camano slices the water like a knife. I know from testing that the 100.7 sq in Camano loses .3 mph of the top end compared to the 99.7 sq in Kalliste in low angle. The relative accuracy of the GPS can be debated until the cows come home, but that doesn’t change the consistent outcome over repeated runs which is statistical significance. So who cares! Apparently nobody except me. Well, now I know. Disagreeing diesnt change the result. Testing the paddle the way you did is what matters. Now you know.

I previously though the Kalliste was the dream paddle, unitl @szihn detailed issues he was having with his Kalliste, compsred to his Aqua Bound paddle. He concluded and I agree that the dihedral made the Aqua Bound paddle more forgiving. The Kalliste requires a more refined technique. Thevlargervthe blade area. The more incrementally you have to build speed, otherwise it’s like lifting a free weight that is too heavy for your condition. The result is your form goes to hell and the paddle oscillates, flutters, dumps water and puts you into an anerobic zone. The solution is to get the boat up to speed more slowly and keep building the glide. I think that’s one reason the Greenland is popular, but it’s an extreme measure. Rather than switching from a 100 sq in Euro to a 60 (+/) sq in Greenland, the paddle that was obviously oversized could have been traded for a 91 or 95 sq in blade of a Manta Ray or Sting Ray, or a 85 sq in Werner little dipper. Ironically, paddlers say its like paddling hard and going nowhere. CHANGE YOUR PADDLING TECHNIQUE. The contradiction is that a 20 sq in smaller Greenland isn’t even worse.

High angle paddling is a tremendous strain on the very complex shoulder joint. When you damage it, you can’t replace it the way the natural joint allows articulation. The low angle technique is far more efficient and less stressful, if hard core padflers would only stop dissing it. I have no doubt that the negativity is due to not understanding proper execution. Hey, whatever, right?

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Slightly off topic.

At age 83+ with an arthritic (bone-on-bone) left shoulder, I must now use a low angle stroke and decent torso rotation to minimize shoulder rotation. I also need a light paddle with a relatively small blade area. Two paddles in my collection work for me - either the Greenland Paddle or my Nimbus quill.
Getting my shoulder repaired seems too risky from the personal experiences I hear. For example, the surgery recovery may not be successful enough for me to resume kayaking before my kayaking career comes to a natural end.

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First of all,
a paddle blade does move through the water when making a paddle stroke, unless the water is frozen of course :wink:
Too simply said, it is the `resistance’ against the movement of the blade through the water that creates the possibility to pull yourself forward on the paddle and with that your boat.
The better you do that, the smaller the movement through the water and the most propulsion you get.
Also we adapt our gear (paddle) to our body but also our body to our gear (paddle), and the wing paddle blade is perhaps the best example of that.

I do wonder about that after more than 38 years of paddling with a very high angle of about 90 degrees vertical.
What can be a problem though is if you use a paddle that is very long with a very wide spacing between the hands.
My hand spacing with a single blade paddle in a touring canoe was about shoulder width.
Now in a kayak with a double blade paddle I use a bit more than shoulder width (59 cm)
with a paddle of 210 cm long and a paddling style that some call high angle,
but feels medium (or “average” as Epic kayaks call it rightfully) to me.

Nothing wrong with a low angle technique for double blade paddles in my view and experience, it just isn’t the fastest way to go.

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I don’t have many thoughts ; I find them tiring.
Look at a GP; it’s a stick with flat ends. You use it at any angle that works.

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The ideal paddle stroke is a non-moving plant. My point is that any slippage is wasted energy. Since the paddle is expected to slip to some degree, forcing it to slip more than necessary is foolish if you have a distance to travel. It doesn’t matter to me how much effort another paddler puts into a stroke. I know energy is being wasted, when I paddle one stroke to four of another person’s stroke.

I have paddled with one forum member. If we get some more distance paddles in, he would be able to comment on the efficiency and comparison between his very effective high angle stoke and my low angle approach. I won’t tell anyone to switch, all I csn do is offer an alternative. I believe hogh amgle paddling damaged my shoulder. Now my only option is low angle. I might look like a two legged dog hailing my ass end on a wheeled cart, but it serves me. Keep doing what works for you. Have no functioning rotator cuff. Yet I matched my best speed over a measured distance from wnen I was in my 60s. It may not be fast, but its as fast as I could muster when I was in my prime.

How fast the low angle technique is depends on distance traveled. Low angle isn’t a sprint technique. Yet I can maintain the same speed over 22 miles that I can manage over 8 miles.

Physics can definitively explain the relative efficiency with which a paddler’s energy is converted into forward motion of the boat, but the math alone has one major shortcoming. It assumes that all 1 hp motors (human power :grinning:) are the same - it doesn’t take the differences between paddlers into account. Quite reasonably, those with shoulder, hip, or other physical considerations may necessarily need to deliver energy to the paddle blades differently than those without.
Like @eckilson, my go to paddle most days is a Shuna. I seem to get better output (acceleration and cruising speed) from less input (effort expended) at an angle below a vertical canoe stroke but higher than what might work well with a Camano or or other “low angle” paddle in a wider boat. On the other hand, if/when a physical limitation rears its ugly head, my output vs input equation could quickly change.

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Most touring paddlers are way below that.
I would be happy if I can paddle with 0.1 hp for more than a few hours!

The way the paddle moves through the water determines its optimal `resistance’ depending on velocity and blade size and shape like curve, wing, aspect ratio et cetera.
If we do it well enough, the paddle blade doesn’t seem to move indeed.

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Then to all. I apologize for complicating an already simple equation. Keep doing what you enjoy and what you feel gives you the best bang for the buck. I need to find a forum for novice kayakers who don’t have an accumulation of personal trial and error or book knowledge about motors.

I don’t like using a low angle paddle with a high angle stroke. It feels less efficient sinking the longer blade deeper in the water, and I think it limits my cadence. On the other hand, I don’t mind using a high angle paddle at a lower angle, because I feel like I’m only giving up some power and not losing much efficiency.

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There is one thing I would like to know. I concede that high angle technique with a large area blade and a short shaft length is superior to low angle paddle with a small blade and long shaft, but I’m curious by how much. Do you have logs, GPS data, or graphs that show how much better the technique is compared to low angle. Any distance will be sufficient, but it woud be interesting to see 3 miles, 10 miles, 20 miles and 30 miles to see if the speed advantage remains constant.

There is no speed advantage in the ‘long run’ with the same human body no matter what gear we use to paddle.
According to Kayak drag from tank tests done in 1970’s and reported by Andy Toro in “Canoeing: An Olympic Sport” some very good Sprint K1 paddlers are able to reach a speed of about 21.6 km/h for less than 10 seconds flat out.
Perhaps they are somewhat faster now with ‘better’ paddles, boats and training.

Sorry, the hp = human power reference was just my attempt at a [failed] joke. Of course you are right … there’s a reason it’s called horse power!

No problem! It was a very good remark, because most paddlers do not realize just how little HP we as paddlers can deliver compared to the average outboard motor or so.

Then you apparently don’t understand the difference between anerobic vs aerobic effort. You keep citing maximum exertion while describing low angle technique as inferior for speed. These discussions become like a dog chasing its tail.

It’s absolutely grand that 90% of high angle paddlers prefer a high angle paddle for low angle paddling, but a low angle paddle isn’t suitable for hogh angle paddling. What I notice is that none of those assertions are followed by paddle length, surface area of the blade, cadence attainable with either paddle, duration of the event.

Low angle paddles, as well as high angle paddles, come in a variety of lengths, and many are available from 190 through 260 cm. Some high angle paddles have less blade area than the Kalliste. For example:

  • Cyprus blade is 7" x 18" with 94.5 sq in area.
  • Kalliste blade is 6.49" x 20.47 with a 99.7 sq in.
  • Shuna is 7.18" x 18.1 with a 95.3 sq in blade.
  • Ikelos is 7.76" x 19" with 107 sq in.

Is it safe to assume that each of the high angle blades are superior to the Kalliste in terms of power. You can run this exercise with any paddle company. What makes these paddles unique is that the all carbon models use the same blade technology. I’m intrigued when someone specifically tells me they prefer the Cyprus 94.5 sq in high angle paddle in the low angle mode over the Kalliste 99.7 sq in blade. The searing logic of a nearly identical paddle from the same manufacturer that has less sq in area being superior escapes my intellectual capacity. It defies physics. I have no doubt that the perception is sound, but the math doesn’t add up. You can tellnyour drinking buddies what you like, and post that on the forum, but such wild conjecture doesnt make sense to me. Is the Cyprus shaft longer than the Kalliste, can you manage a higher cadence, do you even know your cadence, or do you think cadence is irrelevant. Eh, dus’int mahtta! Hohy engle padls are all the same. I like a 212 cm pahdl. 215 is too long.

It would probably require a university research project to control the key variables and reach a statistically significant conclusion.

I came from canoeing, so I naturally prefer to paddle at a high angle, but I bought this for tripping two years ago and its 33" width is forcing me to learn how to paddle better at a lower angle:

At first I used an AB Manta Ray 230 with it, then I got a Werner Camano 240. The two paddles have nearly the same shaft length and blade area, but the Camano’s blade is 6cm longer and I can feel the extra leverage it gives me on power strokes, but when cruising I don’t really notice much difference.

The converse of using a low angle blade with a high angle technique is something I seem to experience whenever I rent a rec boat on vacation. But since the boats and paddles vary, I can’t draw any conclusion from that. My only real point of comparison in a sea kayak was on Milford sound. In the afternoon we were suffering in the wind and I switched paddles with someone who wanted more power. I traded off a 220 low angle for a 210 high angle, and felt a positive difference, like there was less dead effort in the release and transition.

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Hi Jyak,
I am new to Kayaking. It is a huge investment for me even to buy a kayak so I’m trying to minimize wasting money on trial and error on paddles.

I now understand the difference between low vs high angles and preferences.
Now my next question is efficiency.

My understanding is that high end paddles, are more efficient than cheaper ones. I guess Ikelos is top tier high angle and Camano is mid tier low angle.
So can Ikelos outperform since it’s full carbon blade and “more expensive”?

And when I say outperform, I mean like 1 to 2 hour session for a small dude (5’7", 150lb) in his 30s.

I’ll probably try a lot of paddles in the future, but since I’m a total newbie, I want to know more and learn from experienced guys.

I agree with high angle paddlers that a 240 cm Camano is probably at least 20 cm (or 3.9 inches) longer per side for high angle paddlin. g. Primarily because the blade not only has to plunge 3.9 inches deeper to get a comfortable catch, but it has to withdrawn at the end of the stroke to clear the water before it drops (the paddle is 94.5 inches) to the catch. The additional length complicates the exit, because it must travel further to clear the water (the complication is it tends to lift and fling water, which weighs two lbs per pint). It diesnt matter to me how anybody paddles, and high angle seems most prevalent.

My 12 year old grand daughter mimics my stroke, down to the paddler’s box. If you watch people, you will mimic faithfully. Not to denigrate the popularity of high angle approach, but rather than simply accepting it as kayak doctrine, take the kayak outbof the picture. I previously suggested a double bladed snow shovel held like a paddle and feather the blades if you prefer. The shovel can have any size blades or handle length. Change the angle to suit, then shovel some smow and let it fall of the blade. Would you shovel snow like that? Does it give you a mechanical advantage? If it works in a kayak and it feels good, keep doing it.

I can tell you flatly that a 230 cm paddle will not work for ME! Use what you like, but it will not work for me, because I have to reach. If you have to reach, you’re wasting time and energy. By using a longer paddle. I increase the duration of my power stroke, but unlike with the high angle stroke, there is not reset lag with a properly executed low angle stroke. Put a 98 inch pole in your hands and suspend it (my deck is 16 inches, minus 3 inches (+/-) draught of the boat) at 13 inches off the ground. Dip it until it touches the ground. Then try it with a 7 ft pole. The shorter length places the off side tip higher in the air, which reduces cadence. Cadence is how a longer pole with a smaller blade makes up fir a loss of blade area. Someones perception means nothing unless you can quantify it with some measuring device. You can not push physical output beyond aerobic capacity. Pushing .5 mph over your threshold can last maybe 60 seconds before your metabolism kicks the hormones into high gear to clear out the CO2 that acidifies the blood and cuts performance even more. You body fights to clear the toxins or you will disorient and die. Look it up in a medical book. Better yet, go and do it. The effect can be measured with a heart rate monitor, by watching a drop off in speed (which I posted with spikes followed by a red line tracking the decline. Maybe that’s just me. Maybe someone else has a different physiology. Going aberobic is your body kicking into high gear to preserve your life.

Count your cadence with your favorite paddle. Increase your speed until you you can’t carry on a conversation without pausing to catch your breath. You just went anerobic. Keep pushing at that rate and your speed will drop off. I estimate it falls for three time as long as your gain (that’s just a wild guess), but you can see the effect. That isn’t intentional, its automatic because I ran out of steam. Each time I peak, that’s one or two minutes of depleted energy that will take 24 to 48 hours to recover. Don’t believe me? That doesn’t matter to me. My logs are specific to me, but they demonstrate actual conditions and results. Anyone can either accept or challengeand make their own charts to validate progress.

You don’t need power to go fast. You can do it with improving your paddling effficiency. Stop blunting the water with the paddle at the catch (splashing off the front of the blade. Stop lifting water at the exit because it adds up to to 3 tons, 2 lbs at a time.

There can be a difference between a paddle ferling better and one performing better.

When I finish my torso rotation at the end of the power stroke, the next cycle has the blade poised directly over the catch point. For me, that’s a 250 cm paddle. The blade drops inches to the water rather than 7 or 8 ft. A 250 cm paddle reaches 3.93 inches further. A 240 cm paddle reaches 2 inches further than a 230 cm paddle. if you’re using a 220 cm paddle for low angle, that must look comical, but if you like it, do it.

Trading a 220 cm low angle paddle for a 210 high angle paddle has les to do with high/low paddle as much as paddle length. Using a 210 cm paddle of any style for low angle is just not practical. My 240 cm Camano felt good. It took a year before I really appreciated the difference. Using a paddle with greater dihedral feels better, but feeling better doesn’t necessarily equate to higher performance. Larger blades don’t equate to faster "average speeds. You will get higher spikes, but it may result in lower averages overall. Nobody EVER talks about the benefit of staying on glide. How much energy does it take to make up for a 3 second paddling pause. How can you know if you don’t have a speedometer. Everything you do from the moment you swing the first power arc is depleting energy stores. If you paddle 100 yards and float, why are you even reading this.

I have sepsis induced arthritis in my left shoulder joint that is missing the tendons thst hold it up. I hear kayakers bragging about the after action Ibuprofen surge. I take nothing, because I have no pain. I figured out how to go faster with less effort. Is it faster than somebody paddling high angle with a big blade? I think its faster, but people don’t back the assertions up with data. Most paddlers don’t know their cadence. Count cadence to 60, then look at the GPS clock. I typically hit 72, unless I push and it tops around 80 spm. Why would anyone think a 99.7 sq in paddle at 72 to 80 spm would be slower than a 107 sq in paddle at 50 to 60 spm. Or a 95 sq in Shuna or 94.5 Cyprus woukd be faster still. That is delusional, unless the cadence goes up, but I can’t top 80 spm, even with a smaller sq in blade. I could go up, but then my endurance would suffer. I had too much time in a bike saddle and kayak seat to believe hyperbolic claims.