I found a very decently priced Werner Ikelos 230cm at $220.
It is too long to use it for high angle paddling like it’s designed to do, but what do I lose using it with low angle stroke?
Or high angle paddle that’s too long?
Also, Ikelos low angle vs camano low angle?
The primary difference in high and low angle technique is the presentation of the blade at the catch, through the power cycle and the exit.
The high angle stroke typically starts as a stabbing motion that catches the water tip first. Many paddlers suggest starting the catch by reaching forward, grabbing the water and keeping the power arc close to the boat as it finishes at the exit. That puts the off side blade high overhead. Even if the 18 inch long blade is fully immersed, it has to clear the water before the next power phase begins. So the next power cycle for s 230 cm (90.5 inch) paddle starts somewhere around 90 inches in the air. Because the blade doesn’t contribute power in the interval as it travels to the water, a shorter shaft (and shorter blade blade length) decreases the lost time. That can be compensated for by increasing the square inch area of the blades to increase resistence. Consequently, that increases the anerobic effort.
The low angle paddle has an entirely different catch presentation, power cycle and exit. Due to the lower angle, the time lapse between exit and catch for the next power cycle is drastically reduced. Consequently, the length of the shaft can be longer without interfering with or prolonging the lag between exit and catch. A long paddle (I have Kalliste paddles in 240 cm and 250 cm. The 250 cm is my preferred paddle because it extends the range of the paddling arc without having to over reach and withoutbslowi g my cadence. That isn’t to say a long paddle is best for everyone. That depends on physical strength, sound technique and how much blade area you can manage without going anerobic. The longer shaft does allow a wider grip which changes the leverage and opens the chest for better breathing. I can manage between 72 and 80 strokes per minute with either blade. Count your cadence in high angle using the 230 cm Ikelos.
If you compare the premium Ikelos/Kalliste blade design to the Camano (incidentally, the same blade design is also used in the Aqua Bound paddles, from the lower entry level through their top line paddles), you’ll notice the difference between smooth surfaces and especially the shovel back design. The shovel back design of the Camano isn’t so disruptive to smooth paddling in high angle, because the actionnis stabbing straight into the water, so the water flows up the shaft. In a low angle catch, the padfle inserts mor as a stab and knife slice, which would make a big difference with the water flow disruption around the shaft on the rear face. As your cadence increases, that turbulence can be felt, and the turbulence interferes with resistance (the bubbles and fluttering from air bubbles and water shedding irregularly causes younto tighten your grip. Also, the wider blade of a high angle paddle catches on the lower edge first when used as a low angle paddle, again causeing the need for a tighter grip and more fatigue.
If you think you’re smarter than a paddle designer, then go ahead and use either one the way you prefer. There is sound logic in the design of each. The other difference is the square inch area of the Ikelos (110 sq in, I think) and the Kalliste (99.7 sq in). Calculate your fastest stroke rate with a high angle technique and the low angle technique using the proper style paddle. Although this is only for illustration, multiply the sq inc area by the cadence fir each and see which paddle offers the greater total resistance, a 110 sq in blade at 60 smp or a 99.7 sq in at 72 or 80 spm. You may find one also lets you paddle aerobically vs anerobically.
My observation and experience is a high angle stroke is closer to the hull vs low is farther away, and more like a sweeping/turning stroke. Any paddle can be used in a high or low motion. Length is a function of boat width and paddle design with blade length being a factor. I have found if the top of the blade is well below the surface during a proper stroke, the paddle is too long.
While it’s true that the paddles are interchangeable, it follows that walking shoes can be used for hiking or rock climbing; a flat shovel can be used to shovel snow, and a now shovel can be used to shovel coal; and a high horsepower performace engine can be use for towing and a truck engine for drag racing - yeah, in a rudimentary way, that is all true. You can also use a rec kayak in open water.
I’ve never understood why a wider kayak needs a longer paddle, since the low angle doesn’t have to clear the gunnels. Its more logical that the hogh angle paddle wpuld have to be longer to clear the side of the boat, because a 30 inch boat is only 3 inches wider per side.
I have a different opinion about high angle technique and feathered paddles, because he doesn’t lift water at the end of his power stroke.
When you describe low angle paddling as a sweep stroke, it isn’t efficient low angke paddling- it is a sweep stroke.
IMO a 230 Ikelos is a very big stick and that is a lot of leverage on shoulders. Maybe you are a really big individual but I am average sized and the Ikelos in 205 is my everyday paddle. Honestly, I tried it in a 210, 215 and 220 and really felt the difference. I can’t imagine using it in a 230. That 650 square cm face is a lot to drag through the water on a long stick.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I guess what you are saying is that this Ikelos can be used with low angle strokes, but probably not that efficient since that’s not what it’s designed for.
I guess I’ll keep it for now until I can trade or find something that fits me better.
I can’t relate to high angle vs low. I use a long narrow blade for most venues but have a wider blade when fighting wind or current. I also use different lengths depending on boat width. My paddles are adjustable.
Because the Ikelos blade is wider than the Camano (19.75 cm vs 16.5 cm), you’ll have to hold it at a higher angle than the Camano in order to get the full surface area of the blade submerged.
A paddle just moves the boat forward. The distinction of high angle and low angle is partly just marketing more products.
Frinstance, the aquabound manta ray (high angle paddle) blade shape dimensions is very similar to the aqaubound tango (low angle). The aquabound whiskey (high angle) has a lower blade surface area than the aquabound tango (low angle)…lol.
High angle paddle blades is mostly marketing here,
because the difference between those blades are marginal:
they both are quite low aspect ratio.
Also what is considered high angle looks quite medium angle to me.
Epic kayaks does better in that regard by distinguishing between
Vertical, Average and Horizontal:
Looking at the length of 230 cm
I would not like to use this at a medium angle
let alone a real high angle: |
You can use it at a low angle
if you like,
but it lowers your stroke rate and your time to react with sweeps, draws and braces.
I cant’ speak to the Aquabound comparison, but I find the blade shape of my Werners (Shuna, Camano) to be significantly different. I agree with @kanoniem that the term “high angle” is relative. I certainly use the Shuna at a lower angle (average) vs any single blade paddle.
There is some mention here that a paddle should be used to paddle in the fashion (e.g. low angle vs. high angle) for which it was designed. I am something of a cynic. Have the “paddle engineers” actually made definitive measurements to see that the paddle actually does what it was designed to do?
An interesting question. Even if they have made such measurements, the physics will change with other variables including paddler physique (arm and torso length) boat design (width, freeboard, seat height) and more. Like boats, the best test is to try different paddles and see what works.
There’s no difference between these paddles. A paddle is a paddle. Manufacturers just like to expland the product they have to manufacture, stock and distribute. Why are they so myopic that they don’t just give the public what they want - the Sp-ork paddle. Clip a little here, clip a little there, compromise in the middle. One size fits all. Why have one that’s 8 inches wide and one that’s 6 inches wide; one that has an 18 inch blade and one that’s 20 inches. Why not one with a 7 inch by 19 inch blade. Why a 190 cm long and increments up to 260 cm. Some people but 212 cm or 218 cm paddles, so what are they thinking. Then wing paddles and Greenland paddles. Whats the difference between the 230 cm Ikelos and the 250 cm Kalliste or the carbon GearLab Greenland. Pne difference is obvious here.
I can tell you the difference, but maybe you wouldn’t notice. On the other hand, I can tell much difference between thec2
Paddles are paddles. Too many options that don’t matter. How about the hype over high and low angle technique. Why doesn’t somebody develop the medium angle stroke - best of both worlds. Use a 220 cm Sp-ork Paddle. Instead of 99.7 sq in or 110 sq in blades, make them all 105 sq in. I like that. I like that a lot. Go the direction of kayaks, shorter and stubbier. It’s what the marlet wants. I’ll call Werner, Aqua Bound, and Epic and suggested the Grewing Sp-ork paddle. They should like the idea. Its a revolution in paddle design with a square tip for shoveling snow on the off season.
I consolidated my thoughts about paddles a lot from this thread. Why not the Grewing Sp-ork. Most paddlers use the existing High angle and Low angle paddles interchangeably. Many paddlers prefer the high angle paddle for both high angle and low angle paddling. Yet how many paddlers actually know their cadence. How many actually know their speed potential or even care. You can thank me later when they get rid of the fluff and marketing hype to adopt the Mid angle Grewing Sp-ork paddle. Fast food joints made the Sp-ork a household word. Imagine if tablewear followed that trend. Just one drawer slot for Serrated Sp-orks. Table setting arranged with four or five Serrated Sp-orks and pick up any one of them. No embarrasment at using the bullion Sp-ork for soup. Or a teaspoon instead of the desert spoon. Gadds. What a coup.
Go ahead @starmon1, use whatever paddle you choose. As you can see, there isn’t much difference, as far as you know, according to many contributors.
What I suggest rather than collecting opinions is to use the paddle and use it until something about it bothers you. That is what you need to understand, rather than a bunch of suppositions. Does it feel short which makes you reach; is the area of the blade matched to your physical ability (too large a blade might elevate your effort to an anaerobic level - feel like you’re having to pause to catch your breath and feel like your speed is dropping off until your breathing recovers; does the paddle dimensions allow you to maintain a consistent, comfortable, rythemic cadence; does one paddle torque more when the lower edge catches the water and does it tip on the exit (with a high cadence you have less than 1/3rd of a second to correct the blade orientation before the catch; does the performance degrade as you push the paddle harder (can you feel flutter, air bubbles, oscillation up and down).
Converse with other paddlers you meet at a launch site. @Craig_S was generous enough to loan me his GearLab and Ikelos for tryout against my Kalliste. Discuss paddles and ask if you can swap, or go out with a paddling partner. Paddling doesn’t have to be hard. If you think like a mule, you’ll work like a mule.
Try this on your next kayak trip. Launch and sit in the boat. Hold the paddle a little wider than shoulder width apart, which doesn’t influence reach any more than a narrower grip woukd increase reach. A wider grip gives you a bit more leverage, especially if you use a longer paddle that allows a more open chest cavity for better breathing. Another point of criticism that’s unfounded is that it means you’ll have to reach further or it’ll take longer to reset - that’s just not true!
Rest the paddle on the deck. Sit comfortably with your back straight. Arms LOCKED. Rotate at your waist until one hand crosses the center line of the boat. (No need to over rotate or reach - the more you rotate, the more you stretch the muscles and resist the turn, so stop naturally rather than force rotation). The forward blade should be poised over the edge of the boat and ready to drop toward the catch as you unwind. Focus on the cleanest catch you can manage (no splash) as you rotate from your waist, without adding power from biceps and shoulders which remain locked in a paddler box under mild isometric tension. The boat will move.
You’re now in the reversed rotation position, so repeat the dip and rotation. The boat will move a little faster from each stroke. With each rotation, the boat moves faster, which means your rotation cycle needs to speed up a little. After 20 cycles, you will be moving fairly fast, and your cadence has to increase because dipping the blade into the water rushing past the boat will catch and splash water off the forward surface of the blade. All your focus should be on a clean catch. Doing so means you’re stroke is staying ahead of the boat’s forward movement.
By increasing your cadence, you’ll simply compound the momentum and go faster. If you pause, drag slows the glide, and you have to make up for the degraded glide, so remaining on glide is more efficient than increasing speed by .1 mph then allowing the speed to drop by .2 mph, only to take two strokes to get back to where you were; that is evident on a speed graph by jagged spikes. Paddle resistance falls as your boat increases speed, until drag increases and the boat approaches the actual hull speed of your boat (once it hits the sweet spot for that boat, it gets trapped in a trough between the growing bow wave and the water rushing back to fill the void of the passing boat). Then you need exponentially more power to increase speed. You’ll know when you reach that point, because your breathing becomes more labored. You’re lungs can’t keep up with clearing out the CO2. Lactic acid builds up, the red blood cells latch on to the CO2, hormones increase heart rate to rid the CO2, which returns your system to normal. A heart rate monitor can signal that you’re approaching oxygen debt, so does your rate of breathing, as well as the speed readout on your GPS. This is what uncoordinated paddling looks like on a speed graph. Novice paddlers have no clue. The impression is that paddle pause, paddle pause is normal.
This is what the graph looks like when you push as little as .5 mph over your aerobic limit.
Notice a spike followed by a decline, recovery, then a spike followed by a decline . . .
You can’t cheat your body metabolism. Rather than relying on somebody who sounds astute by quoting a matrix to fit a square peg into a round holes, forget the calculations about arm length plus some factor, width of your boat, or your height.
Instead, try sitting in the boat and rotating to see where the blade ends up when you rotate. If that’s too confusing, look at a published chart, or let somebody tell you, but be careful about recommendations. I’ve seen suggestions where the adviser didn’t ask the body dimensions, type of boat or anything. I suggested how to decide paddle length for low angle. Blade area depends on your physical condition and boat. The best explanation of paddle selection was posted in an earlier thread. The person who posted that has a habit of being right.
A higher cadence allows you to use a smaller square inch blade while still getting an equivalent level of resistance as a large blade. Granted that measuring actual resistance and slippage isn’t a simply matter of calculating sq in area, but In theory:
If the higher cadence with a smaller blade allows you to remain aerobic (yes, that’s one reason for less surface area on a touring paddle, in that it allows better use of energy, and it allows you to swing a longer paddle.
So the question is whether a 7.78 inch X 19.75 (107 sq inches) blade torques more when it hits the water with the lower edge first (of course it’s less consequential when the blade enters tip first - the reason the tip of both paddles are clipped is so they can be used interchangeable between high and low angle - the asymmetric design balances the entry as the angle flattens. Actually, the high angle blade needs more of a clip since it’s wider. Thats why they look similar, because high angle paddlers use the paddle for low as well as high angle. So why not use a mid andle Sp-ork paddle.
The real question is whether you think a narrower 6.4 inch wide X 20.5 inch long blade will torque as much or whether it would it matter (so why not a Sp-ork paddle). Bottom line is it certainly will work. However, what is the cumulative effect of a minor increase in torque on the grip. 80 spm X 60 min = 4,800 repetitions per hour, but only 3,600 repetitions per hour at 60 spm. It really depends on technique and whether you paddle very far or spirited, eh! If you paddle like woodcutter chops wood and look at ducks rather than cover distances, buy any paddle and toil through it. Paddlng doesnt have to be this complicated. Buy a Sp-ork paddle. What do engineers know. The public will buy anything they market. It’s just a sales gimmick, unless you want to maximize comfort and performance.
Good question. The answer to that I believe rests in the notion that a manufacturer dies everything possible to reduce production cost, inventory and options to the bare bone so they can enhance profits.
In these austeer times, we see kayak manufacturers reducing inventory of very popular boats. I’m puzzled by public opinion that scoffs at the marketing strategy of reducing desireable boats innfavor of marketing junk boats for a fickle public demand, yet there is a counter culture that thinks the manufacturers ate ginning up product options that are entirely unnecessary. Yet here they are, offering options that are unneccessary, when they could increase compatability between high and low angle paddles by offering my Sp-ork paddle. That would work. After all, many shirt makers offer shirts on small, medium, large, extra large and XXX/XXXL. My problem is the I need 18 neck, tall, 26 inch sleeve.
Look at the Ikelos and the Kalliste asymmetric shape. The difference in width between the two is only 1.4 inches, or almost 3/4 inch on either side of the shaft centerline. How much torque can a blade that’s 3/4 inch wider havenon performance. I won’t go through the math again, because the truth is most kayakers actually don’t care. Typical cadence for peoe I observe or anykne who paddles with me is 4 to 6 stroke, rest the paddle on the deck. Paddle design is irrelevant to that paddler. Paddle weight isn’t an issue, lifting a pint of water at the exit (2 lbs per pint of water X 50 spm = 100 lbs per minute X 60 minutes = 6,000 lbs per hour). Now it gets more complicate if you think of holding a shovel like a paddle, while lifting a 2 lb weight and flicking it. So is it more tiring to move the boat or to flick that little two lb weigh at the end of a 7 ft stick - ah, so that’s why a shorter high angle paddle is better if its shorter, and the bigger the blade, the more water it can lift. Now if you watch @Craig_S paddle, he doesn’t lift water on the exit. No wonder some paddlers have problems believing his modest speeds in a 175 Tsunami pig with a rudder that slows the boat by up to .5 mph (I believe that factor, because I own a 175 Tsunami and independently arrived at the same conclusion).
If someone doesn’t seek higher levels of performace or notice a difference between a cheap paddle and a quality paddle, or if they don’t think there’s a difference between a high and low angle paddle, I don’t want to break that bubble.
And that is why they have a variety of options. Nobody can tell another paddler what paddle or technique will work best for them. Only two people on the forum have seen me paddle. Neither one has questioned the efficiency of my technique, the length of my paddle or ny ability to handle it effectively. Yet I’ve been challenge with comments such as not knowing how to paddle, using a paddle that’s too long and not having the experience to know better,or the technique makes the boat waddle like a duck. Critique without knowing the facts is arrogant. I’ve explained to many people how they can take advantage of a longer paddle but have never told anyone what size paddle they need. That, quite frankly, is none of my business.
If Werner made a paddle that was 1.4 inches wider than the Kalliste, I would still buy the Kalliste. The real question is whether I’d buy a a Werner paddle that’s 3/4 inches narrower. Then I’d have to ask if it has 95 sq in or 105 sq in blades, then test both.
If that’s what you’re suggesting, I fully agree.
A kallista wouldn’t work very well doing high angle there is a difference and reason they make different shapes .
Nor would a Ikelos work as well for low angle. The blade area is larger than practical, the blade is wider than optimal, and a length that makes it best suited for high angle would be too short for efficient low angle, but it would work if performance and comfort wasn’t an issue.
Was doing low angle today with my 750 Celtic just fine adjusted to 215 CM in a 24.25 " wide Solstice. Hands close to deck as I paddled. Longer CM would have been harder to pull.
As long as it works.
