How Do You Get "Rough Water" Practice?

Paddlers' Place
#21

It varies by individual, but IMO for a step into much more daunting conditions than someone is used to a group with support is really the only way. The good thing in this video is that it appears someone told the swimmer to stay on the side of the boat away from the beach. But just one mistake there can result in a broken limb.

And you are talking surf, someone who has not been in it before could easily get freaked by that alone even mild. I set the group record for swims on my first time trying to learn in surf, partly because of my incompetence and partly because what was supposed to be a training session for beginners hit a day of four foot close waves. A storm had come thru, so conditions were much bigger than was usual for this beach.

But at no point did I have any problem being in the surf, it had been a few decades but I did surf time when I was a kid. In fact with the PFD it was maybe way too much fun. I had to work much less hard to manage myself than skinny 13 yr old body surfing.

So I respect these folks efforts, and happily it appears they handled the basics of being in the water OK. But maybe more time with a group training…

#22

The simplest straight-forward approach sounds like its the best.

#23

Yes! Noted.

#24

Yes. What should be the “simplest - straight - forward approach” (a “common sense” approach), often turns out to not be obvious (or “common”) for some. Often, those are among the ones you read about.

sing

#25

Agreed. I assumed they weren’t going far, but who knows. I don’t venture beyond an easy swim to shore unless I am very confident about re-entry in the conditions.

#26

Again, don’t want to read too much into the situation, as Capefear proposed. It is just starting point of rumination and discussion base on my time out this weekend and some of the water tragedies that occurred with swimmers in the conditions recently.

sing

#27

Same here!
Also learned:

  • no matter how well you can paddle in waves, you can’t keep breaking waves out of your canoe :frowning:
  • being able to do a successful high brace feels futile when your canoe swamps anyway…
  • a very ‘dry’ canoe is useless if you cannot make headway anymore…
  • going backward to the beach is perhaps unorthodox, but can actually work quite well with very steep waves for more control.
  • some designs are lot easier to paddle in waves than others
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#28

So I like to small bites in “new” environments. Nothing particularly bothered me about the video. This individual wasn’t going alone. They capsized in surf but had a buddy to assist. They could just stand up and knew to avoid getting pummeled by the boat. Ultimately, It is probably far better to have the skills to avoid getting pummeled in the first place. Yet a lot of essential learning is going on. This individual is learning how to deal with their boat in the event of a capsize while in the surf. This is their rough water practice.

Just because you swim doesn’t mean you have failed. You are learning a different lesson: How to survive the surf with a loose boat. As somebody who lives in a land locked state, who likes to venture forth, I realize there’s a whole lot I don’t know. in every environment I visit, I do think about self rescue. I’ve got no problem with the learning situation in the video provided they aren’t getting badly pummeled or hurt or posing a risk to others.

There could be many dangers that are unseen- rip tides or currents, other swimmers, or an uneven shore topography but I can’t see any of that in the video so ultimately I don’t know if it is a suitable environment for their skill level. That is for them to figure out.

I do know that there are some places I don’t want to linger. Breaking surf near the shore is one of them because the likelihood of mishap is much greater. Acquiring additional skills to successfully move through those areas makes sense to me (bracing, rolling).

Probably a great way to learn about surf is boogey boarding or just body surfing. You don’t have to deal with a boat and get to learn what it feels like to get pushed around in surf. As a total newbie in the marine environment I’m always thinking about "what my abilities are in a “new to me” environment. I think thats’ just basic survival. Lesson 101. Situations like this may not be something we want to skip over, but rather embrace, provided it can be done safely.

You won’t really thrive until you gain some skills in any given environment but success doesn’t have to be defined by dry hair. I would suspect just a little bit of loose boat surf time would really bring home the need for bracing and rolling and provide motivation towards acquiring those skills. Getting a little chundered isn’t always a bad thing. Getting a lot is.

My paddles in marine environments have been in protected areas and I take baby steps. One of things I purposefully like to do, that is fun, is to try to catch and ride the mini small surf that is lapping up on the shore. Going in and out with the waves much like a skim boarder would yet staying a bit deeper. Part of the fun is seeing how far in you can go without getting stuck. That’s my version of the kiddy pool all by myself. Landings in a bit stronger surf are where I’ve need the most help (nephew at the mokes in Oahu).

Bracing can be taught much like rolling, with an assistant in the water to make it less scary to beginners and reduce the need for wet exits. Much easier to brace after learning to roll. You are less afraid of failure and more likely to commit. I agree that the goal is to get it reflexive. I have been told that I brace way too much in my ww paddling. This kills my momentum but on the plus side I’ve enjoyed a lot of dry hair days. While success shouldn’t be measured by dry hair, swimming with a boat can be a big turn off and can put you more at risk. I think the concept of leaning in or stabbing into waves is something the new river environment taught me. I don’t know if that will translate exactly on the ocean but it probably translates a bit.

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#29

I can’t get rough water from tides and winds here. Just wind alone.

But we do get high winds. So high that many times I can’t get past them. I will go out in winds of 25 MPH for practice and if it gets up to 35 MPH all the fun drains out. At anything much over 30, it’s simply a workout with no breaks.

I and a few friends sometimes go out when it’s blowing fairly hard, but we always drive around our lake to a place where we have to paddle into it so if it gets too stiff we can give it our sterns and let it blow us back to our launch point. That’s the good part of learning on a lake instead of the ocean. We can choose a place to have the wind push us into our launch point instead of away from it. not 100% of the time, but most times. A few times the wind has shifted radically and defeated my best laid plans, but most times we can do trips that give us a probability of being blown back instead of being blown away.

#30

I don’t know, that looked like pretty safe conditions for someone to learn in, except they lacked (at least) one important thing: they obviously couldn’t roll.

I learned by going out in much surfier conditions, with a very experienced group. But I had a fairly reliable roll by then. I rolled a lot and I swam a lot too, but it was all in a very safe place along a sandy beach with experienced paddlers keeping an eye on me.

#31

So, I think that is a pretty good approach to getting some rough water experience and pretty safe.

I used to go out with a partner in the building phase of nor’easters when the wind and waves were coming in onshore fast. I thought it was pretty “safe” way to get some reality based bracing and rolling in, as well as to develop/guage one’s stamina in a “high intensity” workout. We paddled like heck to get through the soup and break zones. Once outside, we “surfed” (mostly broaching and sidesurfing) back in, and then to do that again and again. If was fun until it was not. My partner blew his roll, tried and failed again, and before he got out of his boat, got hit with another wave when he still had a leg in the cockpit. I escorted him in by staying to the side of him, and monitoring his swim in with his boat. It turned out that he blew out his knee (ACL). He was on crutches for 6 months. I didn’t paddle with him until the following.

All to say, “safety” is sort of relative. As long as you (or someone) else does not die, it’s relatively ok.

sing

#32

Ok, the video was a starting point for rumination and discussion. The trigger for me was actually the video title itself - Kayaking at sea goes very wrong. (Sea kayak Valley Etain) And, in the description, it’s stated, “High waves, wind force 4 to 5 for my partner it was her first time at sea…” What I saw was someone who went over seemingly without even attempting a brace. This led to me wondering how she prepped; wondering how I prepped in the past and continue to prep presently; and then wondering how others, who enjoy rough water, go about prepping.

This is a discussion and sharing and not necessarily a criticism of the person who capsized in the surf. Trust me, I have had way worse beatings then her and have come close to winning the so called “Darwin award” on my than a few occaisons. I have shared most incidents if not all of them openly for general consumption/discussion in my 20 years plus in these forums.

I am on the side of believing, as long as you don’t die, you were presented a learning opportunity.

sing

#33

It looks almost too shallow for a roll to be safely attempted, no?

#34

That was just sort of click-bait.
Possibly she dumped when he yelled “peddelen, peddelen”…

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#35

I think had she tug forward, she could have roll or attempted one. Having flipped in water that shallow, I will say AGAIN, have a helmet! I think the most dangerous part of surfing is when in the shallows. Can’t count the times that I have my helmeted head get grinded into the bottom…

sing

#36

Maybe conscious “clickbait” title. WIth me, I know I try to give a a good title and description of the conditions and what I was trying to do in the my videos. I want the viewer to get a sense of the conditions that I was surfing and video taping. I watch others’ video to learn. I want those watching mine to learn as well.

sing

#37

OK, but that would seem to require someone who was very good at rolling, and not only would be wearing a helmet but would know how to protect their head, which would likely mean… she wouldn’t have capsized!

#38

I don’t know, don’t remember ever meeting him,
but could be so.

#39

Ok. We can end up in point of debate regarding mandatory safety equpment. I personally think part of safety equipment for paddling in waves would be a helmet, regardless of whether one can roll or not. Capsizes happen regardless of one’s bracing and rolling abilities. In shallow water, the protection of a helmet is crucial in my opinion and experience(s). I actually think a helmet is more important - for me - than a PFD in a surf venue. You will see that I always have a helmet (a couple look like baseball caps but have underlying shells) while I can be seen occaisonally without a PFD.

sing

#40

Ok. I lied. Here is the one video where I did not have a helmet. I had forgotten it and was very conscious about not having it. I ended “playing” very little and just “paddling” more because I was not at ease and couldn’t be “in the moment”, knowing that I was missing a vital piece of safety equipment.

sing

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