Good to know, thanks.
Helmet in surf is not optional. Period.
As to rolling in surf, highly variable by individual. My husband nailed it on his first try. I had a talent for coming up on the side where the next wave knocked me down again. But if you grab the right direction it can be very easy, same as whitewater. In the latter I was, in better practiced days than now, easily able to feel the current and swap sides. Wave action tended to confound me more.
A close tuck to the boat will get you up in seemingly pretty shallow water. And the next wave will lift you anyway, get you more clearance. There can be too shallow but once you have a solid roll it’ll work quite flexibly.
People who have not yet dialed in an automatic roll tend to make it more fuss than it is. My roll is not what it was on the right and I would need to drill to get back the left. But the basic action is remarkably adaptable as long as directions upside down don’t get jumbled.
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I was fortunate when I started paddling to get involved with a club containing several members who were passionate about paddling skills and safety. They shared their time and knowledge freely, and for free. I started out with flat water skills session and was rolling within a few months of buying my boat. That’s a testimony to the quality of the instructors. We learned self, and assisted rescue skills, and towing skills.
Next, I ventured out into coastal waters on trips led by the same people. In addition to just having a good time, we practiced the skills we learned on flat water in progressively rougher conditions, gradually building skill and confidence.
The next stage was the club’s “trip leader training”, although there was no mandate to actually lead trips after the course. We practiced rescues, towing, radio use and other skills, but it was the instructors who spent most of the time in the water, not the “trainees”, who were learning how access conditions and respond appropriately to a variety of scenarios, similar to what may be encountered in real life.
Ultimately, we were surfing and playing in rock gardens - helmets required - fully equipped with the gear, knowledge and manpower to handle the conditions and the rescue situations that inevitably occurred.
I was happy to become an instructor in the program in succeeding years and continue the club’s “pay it forward” philosophy. It was a lot of fun and truly gratifying to see new paddlers progress. I wish all paddlers had the opportunity to take advantage of similar programs.
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I set aside certain days to just play on the water. If I am with novices I am introducing to the sport, we all don our immersion gear and I have everyone jump into the cold Monterey water. I say, to me and everyone else, that this is the worst thing that will happen all day and it just ain’t that bad.
Once that is done, I or we do a short bit of paddling to reach the area where the surf is just enough to make a boat surf. I demonstrate/practice low braces, surfing, high braces, broaches, and rolls. Once sufficiently warmed up, I move to areas of slightly larger surf and repeat. I will practice some self-rescues (other than rolls) and if with novices, have them do assisted rescues with each other.
Monterey is pretty wonderful in that you can almost always find at least one relatively sheltered beach as long as the weather is moderate. In full storm, well, that is another story altogether.
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Good thinking… if you can’t get out past the surf what happens when you’re done for the day? Or if conditions worsen? Practice is great. Practice swimming. I remember spending hours practicing on a small lake in the wind. On a small lake you can get a feel for what the wind does on its own without dealing with waves. I learned a lot doing that.
Basic skills classes, club paddles, and stuff are great. Also, in Seattle go to the Montlake cut on a busy summer day to practice in chaotic water; lots of wake reflecting and interfering makes for a challenge without being in the ocean.
“It looks almost too shallow for a roll to be safely attempted, no?”
I thought the same thing. Right away she stood up, and the water seemed about waist-high on her. If I’d been her, I probably wouldn’t have risked messing about trying to roll, either. If it needed a couple of tries, she could have ended up in knee-deep water!
Yeah, his yelling might well have distracted her. She almost certainly couldn’t understand what he was saying (I couldn’t figure it out myself until I read your comment), and may have thought he was trying to warn her about some unknown danger!
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The channel is from the Netherlands and he is speaking Dutch. He’s telling her to keep paddling so she has momentum to go over or through the wave.
“It looks almost too shallow for a roll to be safely attempted, no?”
I would say there is no such thing.
This is something I practiced after a couple times of exiting because I couldn’t turn perfectly upside down for the perfect calm deep water setup. I’d hear things like “pinned” against the bottom from other folks too. (Quite different from being pinned between rocks and a powerful unrelenting current forcing you into them. I’m simply talking about the sensation of feeling somewhat pinned for lack of room between your capsized kayak and the bottom.) I decided that it didn’t make a lot of sense to me. So building off of what I learned from rolling, I learned that if I can roll up 180 degrees without strain and minimal effort, I can bring myself up from less than that if my head/shoulders/back hit the bottom.
Even in the shallowest water where you tip onto your shoulder, don’t resort to trying to push your body up. You still lead with twisting the kayak upright underneath of you.
Practice sitting up on dry ground. 3" of water, 6", 9", 1’, 18". The key being once you can just quickly do it, you can just quickly do it. This is one of those things where I highly recommend learning in calm, shallow water keeping shoulder safety and ease of movement at the forefront.
Learning to right yourself from different angles and with differing sensations of resistance is a big step towards rough water competence.
This is one of those situations where I would cringe seeing someone trying to muscle themselves up off of the bottom.
Yup. I have tried to explain to people that rolling a kayak is not dissimilar to rolling a log. Except that the paddler (me) can have a real talent for getting in the way when in a kayak
I have had difficulty making this clear to people who have not gotten a comfortable roll. Tendency to make it more than it is. Probably after watching people like me who had a long rough start due to curiously situational claustrophobia. On my most discouraging days, I knew that I was messing up an otherwise pretty simple mostion as long as orientation is space was not a problem. But I rarely could convince non-rollers that I was the problem, not the mechanism of rolling.
I was always very cautious when going out into the “bump” - fear of capsize and getting separated from my boat/paddle was always a sticking point. I was lucky to be able to paddle with groups in ConnYak that were always willing to help teach the basics while also providing an assisted rescue when the need arose.
However, I started wanting to go out (due to work schedule) when others couldn’t paddle so made some rules:
- Dress for immersion - it is GOING to happen if you push your skills
- Look for days and times with onshore breeze and incoming tide - this way you will prevent getting quickly swept out to sea if you do get wet
- Practice in the shallows (which tend to be the bumpiest) by paddling a 100’ triangle - and do that triangle in both directions so you get to feel waves hitting you at every angle. Keeping the triangle small also could keep you in water that allows you to “walk in” if you don’t have a solid roll.
- Work on that roll in shallow and bumpy water to get that “combat” roll.
-Scott
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Yup. I took a similar approach for progressive skills development for rough water. It’s intentional, progressive and with contingencies considered so as to not be willy nilly and high risk (not all risk can be eliminated ever) out there.
sing
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I learned to roll in 3’ of water. On a dare, I have rolled in 18" of water without hitting the bottom. You can do it quite easily as you are supposed to lay forward on the deck when you go over - you shouldn’t stay “upright” in the seat (which upside down is “updown”). 
Yep, I know what the correct body position is supposed to be, but I’m also pretty sure I don’t always achieve it as I’m still a beginner. So I like to have a little extra water for padding. 
You can start learning about reading water from a book. You can read about bracing and rolls and exits and rescues. But you have to go practice those things in real life to be any good at them. Find some easy river. Find some easy surf. Find some lakes with waves but no whitecaps. Go with some friends and figure those out first. Then you can start adding some difficulty.
Roll and brace. Practice practice practice in calm water. The skills transfer.
Also do some rolls in active water BEFORE you get knocked over. It gets you prepared.
So the ww perspective is pretty similar in regards to rolling. I really emphasize kissing the front deck and protecting the head as you get into the set up, then as you get your hands around the side of the boat and you start your roll, you become a bit more exposed.
Is is possible to roll in very shallow water. There are however plenty of places you just dont want to flip over. Flipping over in the backwash, I sustained a shoulder dislocation once from an impact with a rock in the base of a 6 foot drop, very shallow at the base of that drop. Pulling the skirt with the nondominant hand, and swimming with a dislocated shoulder wasnt much fun.
Another time, I was taking an aca recert class. The instructor trainer wanted us to wet exit in a very shallow place. I knew it was sketchy and tucked tight, minimizing the impact. The trainer’s brother in law, who was also recerting, got his bell rung a bit when he flipped over. I thought it was funny since he helped teach the class.
In the ww realm, the emphasis is on working features before increasing the difficulty. So lets say you want to boat class IV water. You need to step up your class III paddling first, running different lines, surfing, and generally working and playing the river. At some point, if you want to get more comfortable running bigger and more dynamic water then you will have to step it up to class iv. The holes get bigger, the drops steeper and the rescue a bit harder. It is hard to maintain that comfort level on class IV if you are dropping back to class III. Thats where I’m at right now. Things that didn’t feel big or scary in the past now seem a lot bigger. Combine that with diminishing physical prowess and I find I’m descending the ladder of difficulty. I’m okay with that. Still having fun in less intense environments.
The learning curve works both directions, much like a bell curve. When the foundation skills are lacking- combat roll, bracing, swimming ability then you know it is time to dial it back. Goals can be adjusted.
Skills can be scaffolded to be made easier or harder. Practice to build up your weak areas. Physical conditioning a big part of it all. Seat time is important.
Yes. Totally agree. Our skills and conditioning aren’t static. These need to be intentionally assessed, a then addressed or accommodated for. So, these days, i dont surf “head plus” (6’ plus) - never mind double overhead (12’ plus) because of my sporadic bouts with heart valve related tachycardia. Big waves and tachycardia is not a combination I want to experience, after experiencing it with just head high waves.
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I think we are in agreement. I didn’t read the description (and I still haven’t read the whole thread) so I didn’t know it was her “first time at sea.” Not sure if that really means “first time in a kayak” lol.
It looks like she had her wet exit down, so that’s a definite plus.
Before I started going out with an experienced group, I had my own Darwin moment. I was in a ship canal with several foot high wind-driven waves coming in off the lake, which was great fun as I was heading into them. I had only rolled a few times before then, and was far from good at it. As I got closer to open water and bigger waves I tried to turn around and quickly realized I was in over my head. I was not at all comfortable with those waves at m stern! I headed back into them and tried to let the wind blow me back to safety, but I had to paddle hard enough to stay in control that I couldn’t make any backward progress. Then the unthinkable happened: I capsized. I tried to roll and my paddle got caught in the painter which I had on the bow (for the last time ever!) . I extricated it and much to my surprise, managed to roll up. But now I was in full panic mode and just paddled like hell out onto the open lake and somehow got through the surf zone and back to the beach in one piece.
I recommend the experienced group method over the dumbass method I employed that day.
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I agree with this in that going out with experienced and skilled paddlers is probably the “safetest” way to go (there is no absolute safety). However, for solo paddlers like me, that is not the most accessible approach. It is either stay home or look for another method. So, I do think there are intentional training and incremental/progressive steps, as a few have described here, to take on rough water paddling. It doesn’t have to be a dichotomous "do it or don’t ", nor a “go with a group or don’t” approaches.
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