Amen Bob!
I still own a “rec” boat and I use it for river floats and family parties where others might borrow it. Works great, serves a purpose and only cost around $200. No better way to get on the water and enjoy nature. But like anything, it must be done properly and carefully.
Not a troll!!!
But it seems that might be hard to convince someone like you who judges what everyone does.
“It seems every week I read a new post from a new kayaker who bought boat(s) sight unseen at DicksBassProMartOutlet. People are putting as much thought into buying kayaks as they do buying a pair of socks, maybe less. As a result new paddlers are disappointed or endangered and will probably never reach the level of involvement that much if us have with paddling - which hurts us all.”
So some people don’t put much effort into buying anything. I have people constantly tell me that I put too much effort into everything I buy. Guess what? Who cares what you or anyone else thinks.
New paddlers will be “endandered” or worse, never reach the level of involvement that you have??? Really??? Everyone in this world that touches a kayak paddle should have the same level of involvement as you???
You know, I thought for a minute I might have read your post wrong!
I never called you a troll
– Last Updated: Sep-01-16 1:32 PM EST –
That post was a response to roanguy, that's why it's directly under his post. so yes, you did read it wrong. See the post that says "BOB - THAT WAS NOT MY MESSAGE"? THAT was intended for you, Bob.
You're not reading but reinterpreting my original post, but hey, if you need a boogeyman, I'm happy to stand in.
If you just dropped a significant sum of money on something you knew nothing about, by someone who is supposed to know something about it, only to find out it doesn't suit your needs, would you be encouraged to start over and continue? Because those are the people I'm concerned for.
It seems it can happen.
I launched off of the beach through some surf, and did a quick paddle up the beach, past Johnny Mercer’s pier, and back.
Upon landing, a very enthusiastic young guy approached me with lots of questions. He said he almost went after his kayak to try to chase me down and join me, but when he saw me disappearing repetitively between wave crests, he figured it might be rougher out there than it appeared from the shore. He figured a lot out just by watching me paddle through and land, seeing me attach and detach my skirt, and looking at the width and length of my kayak, and how it rode among the waves.
He asked me to come take a look at his kayaks on the top of his vehicle that he had just purchased. I did my best to be very enthusiastic about his kayaks, but I did owe him an explanation about the real risks of trying to paddle recreational cockpit, single bulkheaded kayaks out through surf and breaking waves such as we had that day. But I always put a positive spin on what he could do, alternate launch locations, and just better conditions to look for with his kayaks and beginner skill set.
He appreciated what I was providing for him, but it was obvious he was somewhat heartbroken about learning a couple of limitations of his new kayaks. He expressed his wishes that he would have done more research. I just encouraged him to enjoy what he had.
Often times we’re motivated into something that never before occurred to us by outside stimulus. I agree that some of this is missing when people can’t happen upon skilled kayakers in a kayak shop. There is an adventurous, athletic, amazing side of sea kayaking that doesn’t project much stimulus upon those not seeking it out. You don’t know what you don’t know fits well here.
I always figure it was pure luck that I happened to choose to drive down to the Kayak Centre in Wickford, Rhode Island on a quiet day in late November. I knew nothing of kayaking, just that I always wanted a personal paddle boat, and this was the time for me. I’m always grateful that he took the time to get to know me, and the energy I tend to devote to sports, outdoors, and doing those enjoyable things as well as I can. My mind was filled with real stories of adventure, of real possibilities, of the work it takes to develop the skills, and of the risks involved. Then he put me on the water in a few kayaks, one of which I bought that day. I wish everyone could have such a brilliant introduction to the idea of kayaking before making a decision.
OP made the point in last line
…“these kayaks sell themselves”
And herein is the fundamental problem for anyone who buys sporting gear from a big box store which has no salespeople who are informed about that activity so that they can provide useful advice about appropriate equipment and usage. These stores essentially let their kayaks “sell themselves” with little or no useful input from salespeople.
I was in the wilderness sports biz for most of my 20’s (backpacking, mountaineering, Nordic skiing, rock climbing, kayaking gear, selling and guiding trips). I, and all my coworkers were experienced participants in the sports for which we sold gear and were intensively trained both by the store and by the manufacturers about the features and intended use of the items. When someone came in to buy gear we almost always spent time with them assessing their goals and budget so that we could properly outfit them and even direct them to instruction and/or groups that they could join for outings.
There were even cases where we would eventually refuse to sell equipment (especially climbing gear and whitewater kayaks) when we felt that the customer was intending to use it without instruction or qualified guidance.
There is legal precedence for such cautionary action – the company we all know now as Patagonia went through a devastating bankruptcy because one of their Chouinard products was blamed for a climbing death and the courts decided that both the seller and manufacturer who provided the item were “negligent”. A similar lawsuit where a buyer used a piece of climbing hardware incorrectly, resulting in death, placed “blame” on the seller, Eastern Mountain Sports, for allegedly not providing complete instructions on proper usage at the point of sale.
I have strong mixed feelings about this. I dislike the culture of legal malpractice and liability suits and feel that both the Chouinard and EMS rulings were outlandish. I would certainly not be in favor of arbitrary regulations and restrictions on kayak sales. But I do feel that companies that sell wilderness sports equipment have some moral obligation to inform buyers of the safe usage and appropriate conditions of the products. If they can’t do that, then customers should avoid buying from them.
I would be in favor of there being more public education about the safe use of kayaks, even if it is just warning posts at waterway and coastal launch sites about recommended equipment for the conditions and clear descriptions of objective dangers.
Of course, the fact that people will come in and blindly buy just about anything based solely on price and convenience is a basic component of consumer psychology that we are never likely to change.
.
Kayak Centre - my backyard
Great shop and a strong supporter of the area’s paddle sports community. At one time there were probably 5 or 6 similar shops around RI and southeastern MA. Now there are just a couple. The market just can’t support them - not enough people buying high-end kayaks. If it wasn’t for SUP boards they would all be out of business.
Big box stores fill a niche
Not many people are willing to walk into a specialty paddle sports store and spend a lot of money on their first boat. The big box stores allow people to get started in an affordable way. Some will realize that paddling is not for them, some will happy with their rec boat and paddle it for years, and some will catch the bug and move up to better boats. Everyone has to start somewhere.
but but but…I’m a perfectionist
More accurately, I don’t think it’d be a big leap to educate salespeople regarding safety concerns for different types of paddling, and to then advise customers. That doesn’t seem to much to ask. I think sellers who don’t do so are doing the sport and buyers a disservice in the interest of profits.
really good post
– Last Updated: Sep-07-16 12:22 PM EST –
I was going to ask about other potentially dangerous outdoor pursuits, but you answered my question.
I just think the interest to grow the sport is taking a backseat to the quick sale. I think it's a bit shameless, to be honest.
How about the manufacturers?
– Last Updated: Sep-07-16 3:12 PM EST –
Why don't the manufacturers of the rec kayaks with zero or limited flotation include a few lines where the boats should NOT be paddled on the registration/warranty form? We get a "best used" date on our box of cornflakes. A gabillion warnings on ladders. Why not a "best paddled" blurb on the kayak's documentation? That could lead a paddler who loves the sport to a kayak more suited for touring.
I write this as a search/recovery continues on Lake Michigan. Two twenty-something guys capsized their Pelican kayaks on Platte Bay Sept. 5. No PFDs. Fishermen heard screams and rescued one. Search was temporarily called off Tuesday because of violent storms that rolled in, but restarted. Missing kayaker is 21 years old. A local guy.
It's difficult to believe they hadn't heard the mantra of wearing a PFD given every Michigan resident is within six miles of a lake or stream. Yet they didn't have PFDs.
agree 100%
…and if Willowleaf’s post bears out in this case, they will sooner or later.
I’m sure the manual
that was included with the kayak when it was sold included a statement on appropriate use and PFD’s. If the buyer chooses to disregard the warning, that is up to them. I don’t think you can blame that on the manufacturer or the distributor.
My first kayak,
– Last Updated: Sep-07-16 4:38 PM EST –
a Necky Rip 10, mentioned nothing in the documentation where the boat should/should not be paddled. Nor does Necky's website have any mention of that.
My education came from here, Pnet. Six weeks later I had a different boat. A used Eddyline with two sealed bulkheads. Took my ACA L1 with that boat and once I learned how to get back in, it was off to Lake Michigan and other large inland lakes. Carefully.
Earlier this summer I got back in that little Eddyline and was amazed at how large (and insecure) the cockpit felt.
manual?
I’m not sure that’s not a gross assumption considering some of these are sold at hardware stores, general stores, etc.
When I bought my sea kayak it came with no manual.
Any new kayak has a manual
with all the safety warnings - here is the Necky manual:
http://www.neckykayaks.com/uploadedFiles/Website_Library_Assets/Files/Owners_Manual/Necky_Owners_Manual_rev.pdf
Does anyone read it? Nope, probably not. But it is not the manufacturer’s fault (or the distributor’s) that people go out and do stupid things.
Nice to see a manual - but the
seller has to include it with the kayak. Mine didn’t, although the boat was new. I do have the manual that was attached to the PFD I purchased at the same time.
The Necky link includes good general tips, however, it fails to mention in the manual or on its website where a short wide kayak with only one bulkhead is best safely paddled. It doesn’t even contain the words “bulkhead” or “flotation.”
Eddyline, whose kayaks all have two sealed bulkheads (even the ten-footer), includes this in their manual:
“It is essential that your kayak has adequate flotation in both ends when you go paddling. Flotation in one end only can be disastrous in a capsize causing your boat to fill up with water in one end and float ‘end up’ making reentry difficult to impossible.”
While it’s true that some paddlers do stupid things, they probably don’t know what they’re doing is stupid. Which is where some basic info from the manufacturers of the box store zero/minimal flotation kayaks fits in.
Drowning because your kayak capsized, is sinking, and you didn’t wear a PFD has to be an awful way to die.
All I will say
I’m glad I found kayaking before I found P-net
Bought some boats at Dick’s and figured out they could’nt go where I wanted to take them so I got some boats from a dealer then became the master of CL from Lafayette to Tallahassee.
Uninformed Paddlers
I guess I just disagree with the premise that buyers are making uninformed purchases and are endangered as a result. Most people who buy rec boats paddle around the local pond and do just fine. Around here boating fatalities are almost always duck hunters or fishermen who take boats out in bad weather without PFD’s, or drunk college students. I can’t remember a boating accident involving a sober paddler in a rec boat.
You are much more likely to die driving to the put-in than you are in your boat:
Fatality rate per 100,000 registered vehicles – 11.89 (2014)
Fatality rate per 100,000 registered recreational vessels – 5.3 (2015)
Here’s the auto data.
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx
We’ve had a few this year
– Last Updated: Sep-08-16 8:32 AM EST –
...but if you go back to my OP my intent is pretty clear. We see new kayakers in this forum express regret over a big box rec boat purchase on a regular basis. How many of those people would have tkaen kayaking further if they'd somehow gotten the right boat?
If you don't think there's room for improvement, we'll just have to disagree.
Flipside of that is
How many of those people that regret their 300 dollar kayak purchase would have spent 1,000+ bucks before knowing they liked it? Boxstore kayaks work for pond paddler types that don’t care and work as a inexpensive drug sample for those who will care a lot. As for naive in rec boats if they ain’t duffers they won’t drown and if they are duffers better off drowned.