Video
That video helped me tremendously, however the term ‘hip snap’ doesn’t help me a bit. I right the boat with my thigh. ‘Knee lift’ more accurately describes how to roll a boat. IMHO.
basic skill
A roll is being taught by many instructors now (both whitewater and sea) as a basic skill. It’s not essential, in my opinion, but it is a huge aide towards becoming a better paddler, safer on the water, and being able to learn skills faster.
You say you’ve “worked on a roll”, and that may mean with an instructor, or just on your own. If it’s the latter, do yourself a favor, and spend a couple sessions with a good, recommended instructor. You might be surprised at how easily you could get a basic roll. After that, it’s practice.
Rolling is not some magical chalice, bestowed upon the most elite of paddlers. That sort of thinking is detrimental, and old-school. Nowadays everyone should get the idea that rolling is just another basic skill that makes you a better paddler, regardless of your discipline.
Mystical?
I’m not trying to start a fight here, but darn it - the stereotypes around sea kayakers and rolling just won’t die.
I know a lot of people who paddle long boats that can’t roll. But I know many fewer who regularly paddle those boats on the ocean that can’t. The pod we go into bigger water with can mostly roll, or are working towards it if they are newer, and no one thinks of it as mystical. It’s just a spin in the water.
As to rolling in WW, I have found it to be neither as easy as Paul said nor as hard as Jack said. Yes, rolling in class 4 and 5 with your head bouncing hard on rocks is unlikely to be secure for someone who just got their first roll. But that’s not what newer WW paddlers should be in.
I didn’t get a reliable roll in moving water until I had gone over and spend some time failing to roll for a season. But by the second season I was finding that, even with a couple of scratches along the helmet, rolling in class 2 and moderate class 3 was no big deal. And I am lousy at rolling in new environments - it takes me a while to acclimate to new surprises down there. (especially since my eyes just will not open under water)
Rolling reliably in dumping surf on the ocean can take a while too, or haystacks in tidal races - and that’s sand at worst. WW doesn’t have an exclusive hold on making a roll harder.
Appreciate everyone’s responses
Lots of good advice. I’m not giving up on learning the roll, just haven’t performed it successfully. I’ll try that video (no instructors nearby). I meant no offense to the Eskimos, that’s just what I’ve always heard it called. Besides, I like to think of it as a celebration of their maritime heritage rather than an insult. Thanks again everyone.
Speak for yourself
"Ninty per cent of the paddlers you meet can’t do a roll." JackL
While 90% of the paddlers JackL meets can’t roll, that is not true of every cohort - especially among ww kayakers.
Even among the non-ww kayakers I know, the majority of those who can’t roll are working on it.
Kayakers who can’t roll are akin to fishermen who can’t swim. They are safe in some circumstances, but not in as many conditions as fishermen who can swim.
Rolling
The roll, as others imply here, is a part of one of your most major skills, but not only for reasons of safety. I strongly feel that learning to roll is the most significant step toward trying more difficult things. When you are confident that you can recover from a capsize, you are then more likely to do all of the following:
- Improve your braces
- Attempt water you have avoided in the past
- Practice leaning and sculling
- Improve basic boat-handling (draws, etc.)
- Improve your safety on the water
There are others I could list, but this is good enough for now.
Once I learned to roll, I began exploring other, more challenging things, such as:
- Kayaking out of Monterey Bay to see whales
- Surfing
- Class II-III white water (fun in a 17’ boat, though it’s not anyone’s first choice)
- Teaching (students have more confidence in an instructor who can “walk the walk” so to speak)
It was to me, a life-changing skill, not so much because it improved my safety, but because it reduced the costs of mistakes. It’s effective, fast, and not as difficult to perform (technically) as people think it is. Mentally, well that’s more of an individual thing, but once one gets over the disorientation and learns the mechanics, it becomes a fairly natural motion to perform.
Rick
The question raised by the OP here is
should a responsible individual who is generally comfortable in the water but has been unable as yet to master a roll shun Class II+ whitewater (the Class III on the Nantahala is easily portaged) because they are unable to roll.
In my opinion, the answer is no, as long as that individual is prepared to accept the consequences of a swim, or swims. There are many rivers on which the consequences of multiple swims would be unacceptable or potentially place other individuals at undo risk. The Nantahala is not that type of river.
Again?!
I posted here a few years ago on this very thing; rolling as a fundamental skill.
I’m constantly blown away by the insistence of other paddlers that rolling is an unnecessary skill. Says who, those that can’t? I paddle WW and it’s FUNDAMENTAL!!! I teach sea kayaking in the surf zone and tide races, again, it’s FUNDAMENTAL!!!
Having a roll is not just about looking cool and is not a mark of an expert paddler, it’s about survival. It’s about limiting your time being out of control. If you’re not in your boat, right side up picking your path you are not in control. If you’re swimming and just trying not to get crunched, stuck in a hole or trying to drag your boat to shore you are out of control. Rolling makes your time being out of control only a few seconds (even when you’re bouncing your helmeted head on a few rocks).
With rolling comes an exponential growth in bracing skills, boat control and the ability to hold an edge because now you no longer have an issue with capsizing. You to view the kayak is an extension of the body rather than just a craft you’re riding in and new doors will open for you.
like Celia, I’m sick and tired of the old saw that sea kayakers don’t need to be able to roll. Start viewing rolling as a fundamental part of boat control and knock off the crap about rolling just being a party trick to impress people on shore.
One other thing, ‘experienced’ doesn’t mean anything more than you’ve been in a boat somewhere and now you think you know something about it. Haven’t you noticed that in every rescue you read about the victim is an “experienced paddler”? Somewhere along the line the words experienced and expert became synonymous, they are not. Just like the word intermediate.
Rolling
is not required… but
it is fast
it is easy
it is fun
Rolling is a fundamental skill.
– Last Updated: Mar-27-11 4:37 AM EST –
Rolling is a fundamental skill. Rolling is a gateway skill.
Some paddlers never learn to brace. Some paddlers cannot turn their kayak effectively. Some cannot paddle backwards with control. Some cannot roll...
Lack of one or more of these fundamental skills is not a valid reason to dismiss their usefulness.
Some people may run class II-III whitewater in a kayak without a roll. Some people boat without being able to swim. In both cases those people may survive without harm. In neither case is the lack of a fundamental skill preferable to having the skill.
ok sorry about the mystical
and I agree that in surf zones with boiling water with little lift because of so much air in it which requires diggin down deeper to get yourself up as well as going over in a river with lots of movement will certainly be harder or at least involve different approaches to get yourself up. What I disagree with and what apparently is being affirmed by quite a few people on this thread is that it is no big deal. the more you practice just like anything else the more options you give yourself.
There was a reason why inuit peoples learned to roll with a norsaq in hand, a harpoon in hand, with a hand tied or caught, with no paddle etc. It was called survival because getting out of your boat was never an option. It also developed into a bit of competition as well as a sport along with rope gymnastics.
Celia no offence please. It just irritates me that there are those who who go out of their way to insist that you should not learn as it has no value to a kayaker.
doesn’t really matter to me onw way or another. If you can roll and have some decent skills, I will certainly feel more comfortable paddling with you, but either way, with my help or by yourself, I will make sure you get back in your boat safely if necessary.
If you learn to reliably roll, and practice in conditions where you may capsize, you have given yourself more of an advantage as long as you really do want to continue with a minimum of effort.
Of course, if you like wet exiting, having to enlist the help of others with you, or swimming your boat to shore, dumping water out, trying to retrieve the stuff behind you seat you didnt tie down, or pumping water with a hand pump in the same conditions that caused you to go over in the first place go for it!
Paul
Video
Every time Eric Jackson says “hip snap” in the video you need to hear “knee lift”.
Some folks will argue that Jackson’s lay-back roll is riskier in whitewater than a C-to-C roll but Jackson and his kids seem to have all their teeth and their noses are nice and straight.
I think you misunderstand
I doubt anyone in this thread maintains that you should make no effort to learn to roll a decked boat, especially if you paddle whitewater.
The fact is that there are individuals who have a difficult time learning to roll, despite having made a concerted effort and despite having had good instruction. The question is, should these people not paddle whitewater.
In the case of some rivers, the answer is yes, unless they have such extraordinary bracing ability that they are very unlikely to capsize. But I don’t think that the lack of a roll means that a kayaker has to stay off of all whitewater. But a key point is how comfortable a given person is with swims and self-rescues.
I have seen paddlers go several seasons before developing a reasonably reliable roll that is whitewater effective. Paddling rivers up to the difficulty of the Nantahala is a perfectly reasonable thing for those people to do while they are working on a roll.
Thanks, maybe me bad
Paul, the online environment is such a pain at times… in person I’d have gotten the more nuanced meaning of your use of the word mystical. In writing it came off differently. So, sorry if I jumped too quick.
As to the OPer’s question, some of the subthread here is because of history. JackL tends to come down religiously on not needing to roll. He’s correct that there are many in the gotta learn to roll camp, and despite it having taken me longer than probably most here I’m one of them. But with that kind of polarity some dust ups are predictable. And that 10 percent number - that’s a Sea Kayaker estimate that is pretty old now.
Perfect answer
– Last Updated: Mar-27-11 10:53 AM EST –
If the poster was saying that they are getting into kayaking and enjoy paddling on lakes and quiet streams it would be different. But white water? Granted, many people "cruise" down gentle white water with virtually no skills .. and do it for years safely.
Learning to roll is not difficult with the "right" instruction. Unfortunately some instructors are just not good and force methods on paddlers that don't work well or are not adaptable to the paddler's needs. Try another instructor. I've see people learn to roll in a half hour.
Having a tough time getting it…
I took f-o-r-e-v-e-r. Had a bodacious hip snap early on, but managed to mess everything after that up for a three seasons due to some other issues that only showed up when my legs were stuck in a boat under water. I likely should have gone for my first roll without the darned paddle, but I didn’t know that then.
For what it’s (maybe not) worth, I started to get a handle on it when I used visualization to think about the roll, in a nice comfy chair from a calm moment.
It’s a body memory, but there is some head involved in figuring out what mental or physical focus will be most effective for you. There are a surprising number of ways to think of the hip snap alone for example. You can focus on knees against the braces, one person I know teaches lifting one butt cheek and dropping the other (I found it worked for me), think about the tip of you hip bone moving… that kind of thing.
That’s an old number
– Last Updated: Mar-27-11 9:45 AM EST –
That 10 percent is from a Sea Kayaker estimate at least ten years old.
As to the open water self-rescue, that's what a roll is. You seem to talk about it as though it is something other than that. Suffice to say that some of the other options have pragmatic issues for smaller paddlers, like many average sized women, as well.
I don't get this insistence on having a fight about rolling. I get it - you don't roll and don't want to roll because you had a rotten experience with it at some point. But the OPer asked a question about its criticality in a specific environment, which question was answered by a number of people including you. The above post is just a broad flyer against ever having to roll and has little if anything to do with the OP.
My Point is: Jack L
Usually I find your advice useful but I feel your advice your giving on this topic is potentially dangerous and I feel I have to make a couple of points.
To just wade your boat to shore in a shallow rocky fast moving river is not safe unless the water level is below your knees and the current is less than 4mph. If these are the condtions on the Nata. then I apologize.
To wade in water above 4mph and above knees you are at risk. You are exposed to foot entrapement and the water at that speed has the ability to fold you over and pin you on the bottom.
Your advice should be to swim your boat into an eddy or slack water and keep your feet off the bottom.
It’s the source
just sitting in a Kayak…doesn’t really make a person a Kayaker
The mentality of Canoers is to just get out and then get back in…the mentality of a Kayaker is to use the boat as it was desiged …and learn the Roll techniques that make a kayak what it is.
anyone that feels they don’t or shouldn’t need to, or want to roll the boat…is just a canoer sitting in a kayak (this is my explanation of the don’t bother syndrom)
My opinion
Best Wishes
Roy
Find somebody like these …
http://www.noc.com/whitewater-rafting/nantahala-river/nantahala-outpost-info/8-kayak-instruction-and-paddling-school/
Also on boatertalk there are literally hundreds of whitewater paddlers in your area, likely you could find someone who could help you get rolling.
Trying it by your self is counter intuitive - Eric Jackson’s video might work, but best to have someone that knows what they are doing get you started.