I will attest!
to Greyak being the laziest persona I know.
paul
my perspective from ww
My ultimate goal is to be a sea kayaker one day, but living in a land-locked state, I’ve wisely concentrated my efforts on whitewater now instead! I find this discussion very interesting because I roll my whitewater kayak and I would not want to proceed to running harder rivers without a combat roll. But until you start getting to rougher runs, having a combat roll in whitewater is not absolutley needed (IMHO): you flip, you wet exit, you swim to an eddy, you get back in your boat. (With rougher runs, this changes as getting out of your boat becomes more dangerous). Also, unlike with sea kayaking, I don’t know anyone who runs whitewater alone, so you have support around you. To me, I would think of rolling as a more important skill right away for sea kayaking. After all, if you flip, you can’t just swim to the river bank that is just a few yards away. While I ran rivers all last year before getting my combat roll down, I can’t imagine going out a mile from shore in a sea kayak without a roll. But then clearly from this and other discussions, apparently the majority of sea kayakers do NOT in fact have a roll. I wouldn’t even feel comfortable paddling some of our larger lakes without a roll - at least not in the offseason!
Then again, I’m probably one of the most risk-averse whitewater paddlers you’ll ever meet, so I probably am way more safety concerned than most!
PS Question: I perfected my roll at pool sessions, and I see others talk of pool sessions on this board. But I’ve always wondered - most of you here are in sea kayaks/touring kayaks that you take into a pool? I can hardly imagine that - for us we just throw our ww yak on the shoulder and walk into the pool, but with a 16-17 foot long kayak, it seems like it would be really hard to go to a pool. I guess I’m wondering if therefore it’s harder to find indoor pools to learn the roll in a sea kayak, and/or is it just plain physically harder to go to a pool even if one’s available? Just a thought…
basic skill - agree with Greyak
rolling is a basic easy skill. While it is a great deal of fun, and there are many different variations, a basic roll is easy and painless. I think just about everyone would agree that it is 95% mental. Agree that a roll is a failed brace etc. But a brace doesn’t have fun factor built in…a roll does. different variations of rolls simply increase your confidence level to get up from a variety of different positions. (Unless you are competing or going for “form”)
A strong brace leaves me shaky and adrenalin rushed in a big wave situation, while a roll in the same situation just sets me up to avoid the next one…and certainly takes less energy.
Do I go out in the sea with my kayak? you bet. do I carry radio, compact survival first aid kit, power bars and whistles in my pfd, gps, paddle floats (2) sponges, bilge pump, pee bottle, bug spray and sun screen and a first aid kit in an underdeck bag…yep. Hope I never have to use them…except for the pee bottle and gps…:), just like I hope to never have to use my rolls in truly frightening conditions…but is my panic level lower because I have some skills and carry safety gear with me? you betcha! My roll is simply my most basic safety skill. Just like I wouldn’t want to go out into the sea without the stuff in my pfd and underdeck bag, I can’t conceive of going out into the sea without at least a basic roll that I have practiced extensively.
Am I a sea kayaker? hmmm. lets see…probably not. I wouldn’t know how to navigate well without my gps. I don’t know how to hunt and fish effectively from my kayak…don’t know how to use my norsaq for how it was designed, and certainly don’t know how to sneak up on a walrus. I have never really surfed with my kayak (have been in following seas though…does that count?) even though I have had a little bit of fun with the scupper pro and some thigh straps, and I don’t have the paddle control skills yet that I am learning for my three star BCU, etc etc etc.
Ask me again in 10 years.
But remember this…Inuit children learn to scull and brace before they are even allowed to go paddling. A roll is simply coming up to a scull or brace and then twisting up. Are they sea kayakers? Yep. would they consider themselves sea kayakers without recovery skills like bracing and rolling? I will let you answer that.
Paul
What is a sea kayaker
I think on of the problems may be that there is not a hard defination established for what a Sea Kayaker is.
For shooting sports a gun ownwer is simply that. A gun owner shooting at targets is a target shooter. A marksman is a rifle or pistol target shooter who has qualified at his local shooting range, an NRA sanctioned event, or other recognized venue.
If a seakayaker is anyone paddling a Sea Kayak then I’d say less than 5% of them have combat rolls. I think there is nothing wrong with this because few folks paddle sea kayaks in conditions where a roll might be needed.
One nice thing about organizations like the BCU if that the number of stars do give a real indication of skills met.
Both
It will have both (can’t we all get along?).
How many can roll…
I think that most serious / skilled sea kayakers can roll. I know few people in my club that are good paddlers that cannot also roll.
A few more observations though…I think some are more comfortable and confident with their roll than others. You have some people who love to roll and do several each time they go out, others know how to roll but never practice on on a paddle. I believe that they are perhaps not as confident or smooth with their roll and choose not to do it if they don’t have to.
One last point…knowing how to roll is good, but I wonder how many actually have to use it. I use mine in whitewater all the time, but never have had to do so in a sea kayak other than practicing, and I have paddled in some very rough conditions. I believe that good paddling and skills makes the roll something that you only need to use as a last resort when perhaps you were careless or caught off guard by a wave.
Matt
Long boats in pools
Since there has been pretty much an explosion of people in their mid-40’s and up around here getting touring boats/sea kayaks (whatever), the pool sessions have kinda been adapted to accommodate the fact that the majority of people coming to pool sessions will show up in boats at least 12 ft long, more commonly 16-17ft. One area high school that gets used has a larger than Olympic size pool, and while navigating the long boats thru the doors is a bit of a hat trick you’ll generally see five or six long boats and a couple of WW boats in the pool. (Instructors often in the short boats.)
A pool we also used this last season was smaller, so we’d tend to have three 16’ boats in there and a couple of WW boats. It tends to mean that you will be working on sculling or rolling rather than moving strokes is all.
The hauling of the long boats in and out is the least fun part, especially on very cold winter nights. But with someone around to handle doors, it works out.
Recreationak kayaker
– Last Updated: May-15-06 11:57 AM EST –
Or, kayaker or flat-water kayaker.
The type of "kayaker" one is is related to the type of boat.
Since a Pungo isn't a sea kayak, you are not a sea kayaker.
What's a sea kayak? Generally, a boat 16-18 feet long and 21-24 inches wide. The key feature: they are designed to be a bit "tippy". The Pungo is designed not to be tippy (so it isn't a sea kayak).
I'd suggest that using a skirt is almost a requirement for being a sea kayaker.
"Should I be concerned with trying to learn rolling?" No, you should not be concerned.
touring kayaks
"think the industry changed the name “sea kayak” to “touring kayak” so they could expand there markets inland"
No, “touring boats” are (now) a different class of boats.
Not that long ago, “sea kayaks” and “touring kayaks” were synonymous. Now, “touring kayaks” refer to boats in between recreational kayaks and sea kayaks. I’m starting to see “day touring” also to refer to these kinds of boats.
They are narrower than rec boats but wider than sea kayaks. They tend to be in between in length also. They are more stable than a “true” sea kayak.
I have learned several times more
– Last Updated: May-15-06 1:15 PM EST –
Thank you gfmichaels.
I too paddled for years before being able to roll, yet have found since rolling that my learning has accelerated as I am no longer afraid of the embarrassment or energy/time expenditure of having to be resuced or exiting my boat.
That being said, I think a roll will come in time to paddlers who are working on their skills. Rolling is just another aspect of bracing.
There are many paths. Some learn to roll before sculling, bracing etc... For those like me rolling evolves from learning bracing and sculling.
Everyone who persues big water paddling will capsize at some time. Most of my unintentional capsizes have been from working on sculling and bracing. However, I have had to use my roll from being capsized by conditions.
“Easy” or Hard is also irrelevant
Plays into people’s excuses. “Easy” is a mindset. “Hard” or “advanced” or any of that other stuff has no use, beyond setting people up for failure or a lot of lesson$.
If a fat middle aged man can teach himself in murky salt water - how hard can it be? Seriously. Did it come easy for me? Define “easy”.
People who take a long time to learning to roll spend more time doing the wrong things and their persistence often amounts to time wasted repeating their mistakes. Good instructors can shortcut all this. So can being very open to the process and not so focused on the outcome - which will come.
We’re all a bit different, fine - but I’ve got to agree with Salty that it a LOT easier to get a rank beginner rolling (usually one session) than someone who’s been paddling for years. Now why would that be?
I suggest anyone learning approach this with a beginners mind. Drop your assumptions and what you think you know. Feel what’s really going on, not what you’re expecting.
get a roll; then get to not need it!
I thought getting a combat roll was super and fantastic and great. But you know what? When you flip in whitewater, there are often ROCKS in that water, and they can HURT!!!
So after working really really hard to get my roll, now I’m working really really hard to never need it! Now I’m like: forget the combat roll, now I want a killer brace!!!
But for me, I couldn’t work on getting a killer brace without the roll first. It’s great synergy: my bracing has now improved my roll, and my roll has improved my bracing!
“SOTS are actually much safer”?
Since when is safety about the boat type? This discussion is about the paddlers.
Many times SOT are not safer, precisely because their owners assume they are. Their SOTs give them a false sense of security.
How many actually practice remounts? With all the crap they carry? In other than flat water?
I can tell you first hand that remounting an SOT (even one as easy as the Tarpon 160 I used to have) is quite different in clapotis or surf. I can also tell you that majority of SOT paddlers local to me have trouble getting back on in flat water.
I do agree that it might make sense to replace rec kayaks with SOT though. At least they’d have a better chance at re-entry and no pumping.
Weird logic
That’s some weird logic there Paddle_Pirate.
None of that diatribe offers one reason not to roll. None of the reasons to roll preclude anyone from learning the things you mention.
What’s your point?
You might get WET!
The reason why rec boats are pushed on casual newbies rather than SOTs is that many people who are interested in recreational paddling have a bizarre aversion to actually TOUCHING the water. In most SOTs you sit in a puddle of water all the time, and are fully exposed to splashes and drips, making SOTs tough to sell such people. Why someone strongly averse to getting wet would be interested in paddling at all is a mystery to me, but from hearing the moans and whines of students at beginner classes when told the first thing they have to do is a wet exit, I know the attitude is common. Obviously, these hydrophobes will not be lining up to learn bracing and rolling.
Common Celia …
I’m surprised. You should have guessed that it will have a skudder. The zen solar powered skudder automatically deploys and self trims to prevent even the slightest amount of weathercocking. The zen skudder design encompasses the best traits of both historical systems, skegs and rudders. When you think you want to go right or left the skudder will partially deploy and kick over to the appropriate side to initiate your turn. The other cool thing is it knows when you want to initiate a hard turn to run downwind and it will fully deploy. If you choose to edge your boat the skudder will automatically retract at the proper moment. Did I mention that it is and infrared device so there are no cables to foul or kink?
The Celia will also have one of those annoying backup beeping thingys. This was implemented at the request of the BCU and is wonderful for practicing ones reverse figure of eight. Many lives have been saved by this device and the automatic roller. Did I mention the automatic roll up device …
backup beeping thingys.
Actually the BCU version will have an undulating sound to be evocative of a reverse figure eight.
Get out of the damn pool
and you’ll have room! Seriously, “why” the pool thing? I can see it only if it’s the only non-frozen water. Where I live there’s year round water between 47-50 degrees. Yet people still wait for pool openings??? Can someone explain this silliness to me? You don’t paddle in the pool, so why train in the pool? Besides, it’s full of piss!
Train in the pool…swim in the surf!
Nah
It’ll have beeper for the tea is steeped.
Try water in the 30’s
If the water was kind enough to stay around 45 degrees or above up here I probably would extend my wet work outdoors. But what is open spends a few months in the 30’s just above freezing, and while that is possible to roll in by the time I add the ice cap, extra hood(s), goggles, ear plugs, three layers under the drysuit, super thick gloves to stay warm enough so that I can stay relaxed rather than think about how cold the darned water is… these conditions just don’t facilitate new skills acquisition for me.