nothing wrong with pools…
Up here in Wisconsin much of the water IS frozen in the winter. While I roll in Lake Michigan in the middle of December, the ice cream headaches and glasses icing over limit that to a few. I roll hundreds of times when practicing so rolling outside in the winter isn’t practical. I use pool sessions to work on all aspects of my paddling whether it be strokes and boat control during indoor pool slalom practice/competitions, playboating tricks, or simply working on the Greenland rolls. I leave the pool each winter season a MUCH better kayaker than I was when I began. Also for some people, they do not have the cold water gear necessary to boat all year round and also if they are struggling to learn to roll, the pool offers a warm and safe environment to learn in. You seem to presume quite too much about pool training with little to no real insight. Yes rolling should be trained in real conditions, but not all of us have year round 47-50 degree water.
water between 47-50 degrees is balmy
Salty,
In winter the open water around here hovers between freezing and 40 degrees. The bit of open water we paddled regularly this winter was usually 34-36 degrees.
I tend to wait until the water is closer to your winter temperature before I roll out of doors. Sculling and bracing in below 40 degree water is possible fully geared, but I hesitate to roll. I cannot envision spending a couple of hours immersed in it. During such times a couple of hours a week of bracing, sculling and rolling in an indoor pool affords good muscle training and reflex memory.
Combat Rolling In Winter
I probably do more combat rolling in the cold months than most folks do roll practice in a pool. But, I don’t develop or learn any new roll techniques per se.
I only do “practice” in the summer when daylight hours are longer and I can go to a lake after work. Only time of the year when I actually do concerted practice is in the summer. I have a pool downstairs from my office. Can’t stand it. My skin crawls just walking into the pool area.
Rest of the time, my roll and bracing are just means to other ends.
sing
WW Solo…
I do that quite a bit on class IIs that I know well.
My camp in ME is near the class II sections of the Androscoggin. Sometimes I hitch a shuttle on the run below Pontook dam. Most other times, I just play at the section by Errol. During weekdays on my vacation in May (coming up soon) I am often the only person playing out there. If I swim, I can swim to shore but I’ll surely lose the boat…
sing
The point
I thnk his point was that if you have to roll you already screwed up
Priorities
paddle_pirate: "I'm thinking there are so many other "basic" things that one should know how to do before working on that bomb proof roll. How about bracing and a mean wet exit/re-entry? Rolling will come in time, but it's not the be all end all"
It's a bit confusing but he's saying that there are more important skills to learn first. He's definintly not saying "don't learn to roll".
How many pilots can actually land planes
Seems like it would be a similar question. Seems like knowing how to roll is as necessary to safe kayaking as knowing how to land is to safe flying.
not quite
Many kayakers paddle for years without rolling. Any pilot flying would be unlikely to be able to do so for years without landing successfully.
My point
Greyak, is that I get real tired of hearing folks say that one is not a real kayaker or as in the second post of this thread a sea kayaker because they can’t roll.
Many people on this board choose not to wear PFDs. PFDs, like rolling, could help save your life. So, are these folks invalid as well? It’s the same logic.
I’m not against learning to roll. Never was. But really, who are any of us to tell someone that they aren’t a sea kayaker because they haven’t rolled?
Nope
Spin recovery would be a better analogy, but that’s not quite right either. Most pilots don’t go looking to “play” in conditions that might upset the aircraft.
Every pilot with more than 4 hours of flight time probably has some idea of how to land. That’s how long full tanks last in a C152.
My bad…
OK I get it 
Under ya’lls conditions I conceed that a pool may be appropriate. Probably not for me…if it’s not frozen I’ll be fine…was in Glaier Bay, and surf at home when snowing etc… Don’t even think about the water temp actually. Skull cap…dry top…all is fine.
Perhaps ya’ll would aknowledge the paradox of people waiting for a pool when Nature has provided for them? I think people have to apply those skills to the real world and do so often.
The dark, cold, weed infested, sand filled, foamy brine is what’s gonna face ya when you get tooled, not bright tiles. Have a wonderful day!
Nature’s Pool
Is the best. I try to stay in it late to scull or roll and start as soon as I think that the cold water won’t be a real negating factor by itself. So I’ve sculled into the 30’s in the winter, and talked myself into doing a roll as low as 46 degrees this spring. 6 to 8 degrees colder than the first one last year, so progress of sorts.
But I was sure glad that the water had hit 50 when I blew a scull and had to roll up w/o the full goggles etc a couple of weeks ago.
Expanded Bag of Tricks
If you can do any kind of roll at all, you learn to do better braces, if you learn to do better braces you expand your ability to stay upright.
For a long time I was a two state kayaker
State 1 = upright
State 2 = upside down - oh sh1t! Time to bail.
Once I understood more about rolling and got the mindset of staying upright no matter what, a whole bunch of skills start to be developed. I’m still learning, but have learned lots of strategies and ingrained muscle memory technqiues for staying in control when it gets really nasty, lots of times this is not upright, but may mean laying in the water or in a vortex position under the water, feeling for resistance in the chaos around you.
Points and priorities
A capsize is not a screw up if going 360 is a part of your paddling repertoire.
Non-rollers seem to look at capsizes like they were car accidents. "Oh no, better call triple K to paddle the club tow-yak over to assist! Wait, who’s going to assist? Have they practiced? What, no one to help? Ever done that paddle float thing in these conditions? Don’t let go of… Oops!
Rolling can turn what is an ordeal for 90% into a non-event. The big seller is that those who can roll are far less likely to be accidentally capsized anyway. Knowing how to come up makes you automatically better at not going over. The better your roll, the less likely you’ll need it. Sure some non-rollers are good at staying upright, but you can’t tell me rolling wouldn’t make them even better. Avoidance of capsize can only get you so far.
As far as priorities go, there may indeed be more important things - but those can take time too - and need not be learned first - or at least not separately. There is no reason to put off rolling until those other things are learned. No one needs to pick and chose skills or stick to some limiting order.
Rolling goes along with the other skills. It is a first line defense, not last. Besides, you can only do so much practice in one session. Do some - and work on other things.
The world did not stop while I learned to roll. My sessions were few and far between. They included p-float and cowboy recoveries, and bow rescues too out of necessity. Not much work really, and spread out. It certainly didn’t stop me from learning anything else. I mostly just paddled during that same time period. Still do.
Maybe the difference is I paddle solo at least 90% of the time. You folks up North who don’t roll are just a bit too cavalier/daredevil for me. People who rely on others assistance are even scarier (Having help is great. Being able to keep that resource in reserve is even better).
Even with a less than reliable roll, you’re better of making a couple attempts before bailing. Just might save a lot of hassle and risk.
Expanding tools
This winter I learned the advantages of allowing my torso (actually back) to hit the water in order to save my shoulders and the boat.
High braces are pretty tricky under pressure. It is so easy to hurt your shoulder. I'm finding that at a point it seems better to allow my back to hit the water to stop a capsize. It is then not difficult to recover with a sweep, brace or simply coming up on the aft deck.
Less energy than a roll - though I probably would not have had the confidence to explore this technique if I didn't know I could roll up when I blew it.
Keeps the discussion going
Only reason I keep it a little pointed. It riles folks, particularly those who publicly justify not bothering with rolling or who seem to have no problem with 10% or less figures. The longer the discussion goes, tho more obvious the weakness of their points becomes.
I have still not seen one single decent reason not to. I don’t understand the people that agree with this and still post to support non-rollers? To what end? More boat sales? Club membership fees?
In the end, these threads will spur more people learn. The only exception are those who care only about names an labels and like to run around calling themselves sea kayakers and trusting their infallible balance skill and luck.
If you read my comments as saying non-rollers are inferior humans you have your own issues to deal with. Please read my comments along the lines of:
“Non-rollers are missing out”
“They have the wrong ideas about rolling”
“Less that 10% having this BASIC skill should be a serious concern to the “sea kayaking” community - we (rollers) are not getting out the right message and should not let this stand”
The trouble is complacency - and lighting a fire under someone’s butt or throwing down a challenge may be the quickest way to get results.
I don’t care if people wear PFDs. I don’t care if they roll. I do care if they go around advocating others stay at their level, and promote limiting group-think, and spread bad information.
If someone wants to limit their skill set and safety I’d like that to be their business. Trouble is we all know that’s not the world we live in anymore. No PFD drownings lead to stupid legislation that affects us all. It’s the same if someone can’t self rescue and gets plucked out and it goes in the books as another “rescue” operation to save a kayaker. We all take a hit, even when the outcome is OK.
“Kayaker” is more and more coming to mean self absorbed people out doing whatever they want, in silly toy boats, without proper preparation or skill. Most here may not fit that description - but like it or not, that’s the perception. As more take to the water, that perception will grow.
Yes, rolling is but one of many skills - but it’s a skill with many benefits - and is also visible to non-paddlers who recognize it as something that does show some skill and boat handling. That can change public perceptions.
Salty, you Dawg!
Exactly. I found success in teaching rolling to beginners right away, and found experienced paddlers much more difficult to teach. I observed a number of factors contributing to this.
It also made sense to teach rolling before bracing; how can anyone committ to a high brace when they know they’ll have to wet exit when they miss. If they learn the roll first, when they miss a brace while practing, they get to practice another roll and feel the SUCCESS of the roll rather than the FAILURE of the missed brace. They are upright and ready to try again, instead of having to get out of the boat, empty it, taking time, effort and adding to frustration when its happenned 3 times in a row. Plus, they have already learned the bracing technique via the roll, its just making the adjustments.
The old sea paddlers that don’t roll like to argue that the only reason one needs a roll is because you’ve missed your low brace, missed your high brace, and missed your sculling brace. I thought the commone sense reply is ‘sure, and you wear your seat belt in a car incase you miss the turn, miss the brakes, miss the guardrail and hit the tree.’
Why can’t sea kayakers learn to roll when white water kayakers consider rolling just another stroke in their arsenal?
When I learned how to roll, Sandy Grahm told me to treat the roll (and other strokes) as any other sport; practice with drills. He told me to roll 10 times at the beginning of every paddle, 10 times in the middle, and 10 times at the end. Do that for a season or so. Get wet a lot in the beginning, then I would never have to get wet again. We would begin every paddle with a 20 minute warm up; forward stroke, sweep strokes, low braces, high braces, rolls, etc. At one year of paddling my friend and I had reached BCU 4 star awards.
If people want to sea kayak without a roll, thats fine with me; they are the captain and crew of their vessel. I don’t feel “elitist” about it(the vast majority of people I paddle with roll, so its pretty common ) and don’t care one way or another what goes on in their boat, its their perogative. However, I agree with what Wilson pointed out; rolling is definitly a gateway. And personally, I’d be afraid to paddle without a roll. I would simply feel irresponsible.
Tell The Inquirers…
the importance of bracing. Tell them if you have a good brace you won’t need to roll.
Truism…
very few have good braces but can't roll. Very few good rollers don't have good braces compared to someone who can't roll.
sing
advocating?
"if they go around advocating others stay at their level"
Who, exactly, is advocating this?
Rolling:
* Is not "necessary" for sea kayaking.
* Is (generally) fairly easy to learn. (Though some people do have difficulty learning it.)
* Is the fastest recovery skill.
* Is very helpful in learning other skills.
* Is concidered a basic skill for white water kayaking.
* Is fun to do.
* Is real impressive to non-rollers.
"Swimming sucks." WW comment.
At this point, I'd say that, after a capsize, my first instinct is to roll.