Hey I’m curious as to your results. In my experience getting this kind of data is challenging and I like to hear the stories. A couple thoughts: The key to getting good data when there are a lot of variables (from the unruly world, the inconsistent human and the crude test equipment you can bring into the field) is quantity of data. For example if you do everything three times you can compare how much variation there is between repeats compared to how much there is between different paddles, and you’ll know whether your test method is capable of detecting differences. Anecdotally from friends who do research in academic settings, cheap heart rate monitors correlate pretty closely with oxygen consumption monitors (those things people wear on treadmills in labs) and are a good way to track exertion for most purposes. Note that this will tell you zero about say muscle fatigue, joint injury, or a lot of other things you care about too, but average speed vs average heart rate will tell you something about whether your cardio effort is going towards moving the boat forward or to something else. As mentioned by others above, randomizing or deliberately scrambling the order is important so you’re not introducing a bias. One thing that will be tricky to eliminate is evolving familiarity with a piece of equipment–usually people get better at using new things. Assuming you don’t have infinite time to paddle-- one good option is don’t run artificial experiments just come up with an unobtrusive system to collect data whenever you were doing whatever you were going to do anyway and analyze it occasionally when bored. You’ll need more data to let the variables cancel out but it may cost you less and be more realistic ie you may accidentally find that (for example) there’s no flat water difference but a big wind difference or perceived soreness difference or … Anyway good luck!
Mattmccambtidge, I have to agree with all you said. As for me, I have not electronic gizmos at all. Just old fashioned map and compass and a watch. So my times are always averages. Nothing precise. What I have done is to compare times over water for given distanced between my GL paddles (first ones were shorter and narrower then the ones I show above in the picture) and my “euro paddle” and in every instance the speeds I did were faster by far then my GL paddles. After I made the one one the bottom of the above picture I find my times between my Euro Paddle and my long wider GL paddle are very close. The euro (for me) is still faster, but over a 54mile stretch I come in about 10 minutes slower with the GL then I do the euro. In a 25 mile trip I’d be close to an hour slower by my figuring. However I still find myself talking the Greenland paddle more because I love how easy it is to do everything else, ruddering sculling draws and bracing and especially for rolling. And as you said over time I may find I simply get better with the tool. Now that part can’t be made into a dogma, simply because if I took the same amount of time with any paddle I’d get better and better until I maxed it out.
I am far from a wealthy man, and if I had money enough to buy various paddles a try them out I might find an end result that is different. But for me, I live where there are almost no kayak shops in the state and the ones that we do have are many hours from me and specialize in WW kayaking and equipment. But I am very good with my hands and I can make a GL paddle (varying styles and forms as well as lengths and widths) and a simple one takes me 2 hours from raw wood to a place it’s ready for sanding. So I have been making, using and in many cases giving away the paddles I didn’t like until I made the one above. I truly like that one a lot…
For me to come up with a set of statistics that would be very helpful to anyone else, given my location and limitations I’d need to dedicate a year or so to nothing but the GL paddle and then the following year do all the same trips in the same conditions with the Euro- style paddle and make a comparison. In that time I’d also need to be in the same condition every year and as an older man, that’s not something I can depend on either. What I can say is that as I have gained hours in the kayaks I have I see patterns of improvement that are far higher then what I expected to gain is a short period, but I have the advantage of living 7-8 minutes away from the water and I can (and do) paddle 5-6 times a week and from this spring and summer, I was doing 3 hours every weekday and often 12-16 hours on Saturdays and about 8-10 hours after church on Sundays. So despite the short number of weeks and months, the hours stacked up fast. I feel I am solidly in the newbie class, but doing well enough to see where I need to improve. I have no intention of competing with anyone for speed, but I do want to be able to keep up with my sister and her friends in the up-coming trips along the Alaska coast. They tell me their groups averages 3.2 MPH over a 7 day trip and so I need to know for a fact I can do that or faster with a loaded kayak. In my last 3 months I have done 3.7 to 3.8 MPH with my Chatham carrying a full load of camping gear, and even in the trip along the shores of this lake where I scouted for a lot of new camp sites I still averaged 3.2 MPH. So at this point speed is going to denote efficiency but going faster just to go faster is of no real interest to me. What I do have a keen interest in is quick turning and rolling.
I go out on days when the wind is up to about 30 MPH. As I get better I may try faster wind conditions, but for now 30 is about the max I can keep control in. That’s the closest thing I can simulate to ocean waves given my location. The last time I was in stiff winds I was relaxed and stayed up. In May and June the same winds made me swim a lot. But when I was rock climbing I took the position “if I am not falling now and then I am not pushing myself to get better” So with kayaking I took the same point of view. What I did (and do) is to drive around the lake and put in at places where I have to go into the wind so if I fail (and I did quite a few time) the wind pushed me beck to sore. Now I can go in chop up to about 2-1/2 feet and feel 100% relaxed. At about 3 feet I need to really start paying attention to my strokes and my bracing. Anything over 3 feet is beyond me at this stage of my paddling.
And seeking out the wind, it also plays hob with my speeds and averages. So what I know for sure is that at this stage the euro paddle is a bit faster for me, and the GL paddle is easier to use for everything but top speed. To put any kind of accuracy to the speeds is not something I believe I can do, but it’s also not something I obsessed over once I found I can go as fast as my sister’s groups in Alaska. I am invited but was nervous about being the log they have to drag. From taking to the leader of that group I am told I am dong well enough now that I need not worry about slowing them down. I am 65, and when I go with them I’ll be 'the kid". All the rest are 67 to 77 years old, but they all have a lot more experience then i do, so I really want to go because I think I can learn more from the 7 of them in a week then I can teach myself in a year.
Mattmccambridge, somehow I lost track of this thread. String actually has the right approach; however, speed and efficiency is important to me for any reasons. Primarily, I want to go further. The only way to do that is to increase average mph or stay in the boat longer. My limit is 7 to 8 hours. Period! That’s it. So it’s an equation. If I want to go futmrther than 49 miles, I have to go faster. I can do it with a faster boat. I can do it with greater level of conditioning. I can do it with a more efficient paddle. I have access to 10 different paddles. The one I settled on, I have in two lengths. I’m making a Greenland Paddle.
So what is the best combination to go longer distances. Nobody can answer that but you. If I find the Greenland is easier to paddle, but I can only go 30 miles instead of 40, I won’t achieved my goal of going further. I can roll or rejoice over how wonderful it feels, but if my goal is distance, I need the paddle that gets me where I’m going in the time I devote to the activity. That’s it. I used GPS to help figure that out. I startedusing an app that record by graph the speed over the duration of the trip. That shows how legs that are with or counter to wind or tide register. Some have questioned the accuracy of the GPS, or on the other hand, questioned manual calculation, based on time traveled to various points of reference, and the time the points were reached. Using dividers on a chart and a scale have matched within .1 or .2 mph and the distance travel comes equally close. That’s verification enough of how ccurate each method is. So you don’t need a GPS, it just means you don’t have to stop and record times at waypoints. The GPS/apps also shows the range of speeds, and max speeds. If you use two different paddles on the same course and switch paddles. You can see the max speed by one and max of the other. It doesn’t matter what shortcomings that test tells anyone. IT MATTERS WHAT I GET FROM THE EXPERIMENT. I focused on a specific course over seven yrips under different conditions and tides. My goal was to improve each trip by .2 mph on each trip. Whether looking at the GPS, or just recording without the screen, I managed to improve consistently by .1 and .3 mph per trip. If I want to skew the test, it’s on me. By tell you what I found, you can test yourself and come to your own conclusion.
String probably said it best. What’s important is being on the water and paddling. One thing I’m getting from people using Greenland Paddle is that they enjoy using it, not because it’s faster, but because it help control, and it’s versatile, and you can build it as well as modify it, and it’s easy on your joints. I think I may use the Greenland for routine trips. If I want to go further, maybe I’ll use the Euro.
There is no answer to “What’s the Best Paddle”. When you paddle for a while, you begin to know what a paddle feels like. You figure out what you want in terms of length, blade shape, surface area of the blade, and you pick a different paddle for each style of kayaking, from distance, to surfing, to white water, to speed, to anything else. It’s the ride, enjoy it.
What app gives you winds , tides, and speeds?
If your going 49 miles in 7-8 hours you’re doing real good 
or downwind or down river.
What’s your fastest boat paddle combo? How fast over a long distance?
Responses?
That was a long post, but if you look again it was hypothetical. I’ve never gone 49 miles (not sure, but I think I intended to type 39, because I mentioned a hypothetical 30 miles if I used a GP vs 40 if I used a Euro further down in the text. Its hypothetical. Same thing applies: The point about speed is that if I wanted to go a distance of say 49 miles, I would have to go faster - faster boat, better physical conditioning, more efficient paddle, or all the above.
To answer the other question, the furthest I’ve ever been in one trip was 4.65 mph avg ⁰⁰over 38.75 miles in 8 hrs 20 min with 10 min break. After that, I never wanted to spend 8 hours in a kayak again. And due to my age and physical limitations, I’ll never be able to do it again. Since you asked, I know the fastest over the 8.46 mile course I mentioned was 4.99 mph. This year with my bum flipper, it took twenty trips to be able to reach an average speed of 4.5 moving time (see graph). That I recorded on GeoTrac and GPS. My GPS showed a peak speed of 6.3 mph, but the GeoTrac app clipped everything over 5 mph. I used to be able to keep up with and pass boats entering no wake zones over a 1/4 mile sustained sustained distance. Cain’t no more. Too old and too damaged. I paddle a 14.5 Tsunami, and love it. The reason I joined the forum was to solicit info on faster boats. I’ve since changed my mind d and have become obsessed with exploring Greenland Paddles. Thanks for the incredible info from GP users. You guys are truely committed.
What app tell you wind, tide and speed? None that I know of, but my Garmin Colorado and the internet gives times of high and low tides, as well as a graph of the peaks and lows. Garmin also shows currents at specific bouys, but I don’t believe them. I know currents based on direction that various bouys point on incoming or outgoing current. I’ve traveled the plotted course so many times, I know how the constant current flow out of the Gunpowder impacts the tidal flow.
Wind speed and direction is easy, it’s on the NOAA forcast, along with water/air temp. I rely on Martin State Airport, Tolchester and Thomas Point Light. All I do is paddle straight and fast. It’s what I do, it’s all I do. Its nothing extraordinary compared to stuff many members do. We discussed this before and you were . . . Skeptical. Don’t matter. Nobody on this site knows me. I gain nothing from making it up. The numbers are real, so for any members paddle a Tsunami, don’t believe it won’t move if you push it. If you own a Tsunami, feel free to ask me how. Maybe I can help you get there.
Sorry for the delayed response. I opened the site to see if I got a reply about a GP question. I’m currently down, watching kids make Christmas cookies.
Paddledog52, earlier this morning, I saw logs from one member. The logs show more miles for each of several consecutive years than I’ve done in a lifetime of paddling over fifteen years. I know by the type of boats that member owns and paddles that I wouldn’t even go out on days that the member goes out to “play”. That member doesn’t use a GPS, doesn’t want one, and doesnt need one, because it’s all internalized. The GPS and the apps are a crutch for me. I’ve learned that most paddlers don’t know and don’t care. Speed is irrelevant. Its about the paddle time. Another member said essentially that in another post. It’s only relevant to me, anyone who owns a 145 Tsunami, or anyone who owns a rec boat and wants to go faster.
For speed, efficiency, and distance competitive paddlers almost universally use carbon fiber wing paddles. I suppose there is a reason for this.
I don’t have any interest in competitive paddling although I was known as a distance paddler. I’ve been happy with a Werner Ikelos.
Rstevens15, I like the Werner paddle line. I’m trying to return to kayaking after a few years off. The Ikelos is for people who are conditioned. My first trip back made me want to weep and I was using the Kalliste. I’m looking forward to next spring, to see if I can pick up where I left off. I’m going to play with Greenland Paddles, because they may fit my preference for high cadence. The idea of a self made paddle is getting in my blood.
A good number of my friends have switched to Greenland paddles that they made themselves, although some switch back and forth between Greenland and Euro.
Greenland paddles are said to be slightly less efficient than Euro paddles, possibly due to the relatively gradual way they enter the water on the catch. However, for the same reason they are said to be much easier on the shoulders.
The Ikelos is a fairly aggressive high angle paddle. I bought it in essentially new condition for an absurdly low price from someone who found it too hard on his shoulders.
That’s my problem, a wrecked rotator cuff. I’ve managed with the Kalliste 99 sq inch blade, and a modified low angle with more core rotation. Comeback was grueling. Looking forward to trying the Greenland.
So …how are you gauging efficiency of a paddle?
Do paddlers consider the fastest as the most efficient?
Is distance per stroke considered efficient?
Is less fatigue for a given distance more efficient?
Is easier on the body {or joints etc} for a given distance more efficient?
Sounds like some equate efficiency with speed , and it doesn’t matter how the paddler suffers.
A paddle could be hard on your body and still burn the same calories {or less} then one that is easier on your joints, for a given time and distance depending on where the forces are focused during the stroke… paddle design…
Food for thought on the definition…What is your goal?
The efficiency of any paddle begins with the efficiency of the paddlers stroke for any given paddle. {independent of your definition for efficiency or your “goals”}
I would tend to think that if you can do the same distance, in the same time, and burn the same calories, but not have the same soreness in the joints…paddle design
Roym, you got it. Efficiency is different things to different paddlers. One style of paddle doesn’t serve all needs.
Consider runners in all styles: sprinters, long jumpers, ones who jump little hurdles, ones who jump over tall hurdles with long poles, ones who go long distances and short, ones who climb mountains. Not one shoe does it all. Not all goals are the same.
I’ve been on the forum for about nine months and I’m finally figured it out. One member posted his video of surf kayaking. It was obvious he didn’t care about how fast he was going, and doesn’t have time to watch a GPS. His paddle got him to a spot. Then it was all bracing, and It all happens so fast, he had a GoPro to record what happened and how it all went down.
If you go out to take pictures, what matters in a paddle design? You don’t need the lightest paddle. On the other hand, maybe you could appreciate the extreme light weight that compromises strength of the Werner Ovation. You probably won’t push the paddle to destruction, and you don’t want to feel a paddle at all, so the $515 price tag might be worth it, not for power or speed, but for transparency. Speed and calories burned might be the last thing on your mind.
If you’re pushing a heavily loaded kayak on a camping trip, you’ll plod along as you observe, breath in the air, and feel the flow of the stream. The ride is part of the extended experience of camping. If the camp is 15 miles away, and you know you paddle an average speed of 3 mph, you realize you’ll get there around 5 hours. If you want to get there faster, you paddle harder. If you’re in a group, you enjoy the companionship.
All kayakers are not concerned about speed. Depends on your style… Every time I go out, I try to go from point A to point B and back to A. My goal is to go as far as I can in a given period of time, and only I know how far I will be able to manage my energy. I use a blade that many paddlers feel is too long and narrow. I like the paddle for the very reasons they dislike it. When I canoed in my early years, I preferred long large blades. I had plenty of strength and power then. Many canoe paddlers prefer precision and finess. Even if that was wrong, it’s what I did, butI would do it differently.
I’m concerned about energy management. Through repetition, I’ve learned how to manage my energy reserves. I enjoy solo paddling, because I haven’t found any other person who matches my energy usage. Everyone starts out too fast, when muscles need to be warming up. Then during the return trip, they run out of energy and limp in. If you look at the graph I posted, you’ll notice the last 30 minutes is elevated. During that last 30 minutes, I paddle all out. That not only burns off as many calories as possible, but it shows me what I have left if I ever need a reserve. I also prefer to manage my energy to have that reserve, in case it’s a nice day and I want to just keep paddling. That’s what happened on my longest trip. It was a foggy day that cleared and the waves were long gentle rollers. I just wanted to keep going. During the last hour and fifteen minutes, I was dehydrated and bonked as I limped back. I stopped on the other side of the bay for water, and a machine with bottled water kept my $1.00 in quarters. I never wanted to do that again.
You ask the right questions roym.
You should bring enough fluids so you don’t run out.
Absolutely. I had two, 2-liter bottles, and carried a stash of quarters. I was on the Eastern side of the Chesapeake and detoured about 2 miles to the south where there is a marina at one of my usual destinations called Fairlee Creek. Cool place, but it was closed. The vending machine with water bottles ate my quarters. There wasn’t a soul around. It was 10 miles back, so I set off with about a pint of tepid water. That was a good year, during which I consolidated my efficient paddle stroke and had the conditioning. The real issue was that I used up all of my energy reserves; up to that point, I had been conditioned to trips in the 27 to 32 mile range. Then I became dehydrated enough to affect my performance. Pushed the limit and found my breaking point. I haven’t found anybody who can go distances. I often paddled with my sister, but her limit is about 25 miles.
I don’t have the boat handling skills that many of you guys have. I’m selective about days I go out on long trips, and plot courses that are never further than 1 1/2 mile from land. I try as much as possible to take advantage of tides and wind. That day had an Eastern breeze of around six mph at my back on the return trip. It resulted in a perceived breeze of around 1 mph and a very stagnant condition in the seat. I’d much rather have a 6 mph wind in my face, but a North wind at that time of year brings damned hard bitting, persistent black flies from the land.
You admonishing is heard and understood.
The primary purpose of a paddle is to move the boat forward. For a paddle to be efficient, it would move the boat a set distance at a set speed with the least expenditure of energy or calories.
This may vary on a number of factors such as the boat, the paddler, conditions, etc.
Agree, and best matched to an individuals physical attributes, and as you recommend, to the boat and conditions. It’s one reason avid paddlers have do many paddles, as they evolve and experiment. Paddles are personal.
@rstevens15, I came across this post in the suggested topic section. After two season of following my GPS and checking accuracy, i learned a lot about my paddles.
Agree that once a human is involved, the results will be skewed by perception. I found when paddling with other kayakers, their perceived speed is grossly skewed, depending on whether going with wind and tide, or when one is going one direction and the other is in a counter direction. Whether the GPS can be trusted is a valid question, but when the tide is outgoing, turning a corner into the tide would result in a drop in speed as expected, while the partner perceive an increase of speed (probably due to the illusion caused by the direction of the waves and wind. Conversely, on the side of the peninsula where we were running with the tide and wind, my partner thought we were going slow (GPS showed 5.2 mph). Turning the corner into the wind felt faster to them, although we dropped to 3.6 mph. I couldn’t convince them they were misreading the speed, even after explaining the conditions.
By watching the GPS. I see that I can paddle full power for at least 30 seconds. If my comfort level is an average of 4.2 mph and I push to 4.9 for 30 seconds, I might drop to 3.6 moh, but it take longer than 30 seconds to build back up to 4.2 mph.
Paddling at a set speed and maintaining 4.2 mph, the glide bleeds off at about .2 mph per second, while it takes me about 2 seconds to regain .1 mph, mostly because my acceleration is slow to avoid slippage.
Considering that the paddle pulls the boat forward, I would suggest that any cavitation, bubbling, slippage or wobbling is an indication the paddle is moving rather than the boat. It follows that any further effort to push, or pull, alternate pushing with the foot and opposite power hand will increase acceleration, but its equivalent to flooring the gas pedal in a car - the rapid acceleration comes at the cost of wasted energy.
With that in mind, my thought is that square inch of the blade is less important than matching the paddler’s physical ability to the size of the padfle by controlling cadence. The joints can be saved my moderating acceleration with lower cadence, then increasing cadence as the boat gains speed.
My reaction is that the best strategy is to find a blade and length that lets you keep a high cadence and efficiently remain on glide. The logic being that its harder to build speed than to sustain speed.
When Steve Z and I discussed his Kalliste, the only way I could replicate the problems he had was to overpower the paddle. Overpowering results in lost efficiency. It might make the boat go faster, but it’s at the expense of wasted energy reserves.
I don’t claim to be right, only that it’s what I observed.