I want Help Selecting My First Touring Kayak

The best tool for understanding efficiency is the GPS. @Craig_S combines the GPS output with his heart rate monitor and uses the output to take performance to the edge. He probably shouldn’t shares his data, but I don’t think his competitors are paying attention to his posts, and I don’t think he cares, because he’s confident with his ability. His reply to any doubters is - Bring it!

By comparing the readings from both of his devices, I was able to better understand the peaks and valleys in my graphs, which is how I flattened my spikes. I found that it isn’t about paddling harder, but paddling smarter.

Our body regulates itself by monitoring blood levels for oxygen/Co2/acidity/blood sugar. Glands secrete hormones and enzymes to prevent being overwhelmed. You can’t cheat it, but you can read the signs and reduce the spikes. It’s senseless to argue the accuracy or reliability of the devices or the data. What matters is the ability to measure improvements in performance.

When I look at logs from years ago, I notice how inconsistent avg trip speeds were between different trips, and it had less to do with conditions than how I applied effort. Improvement in performance and greater consistency followed with learning how to read the data, especially after using the GeoTrack which records the speed on a graph. It doesn’t matter how accurately the chart tracks the actual speed. What matters most is how it compares to other trips when applying different techniques.

You mention how you can go faster, but it over taxes your joints and muscles. You’ve seen my charts. The chart below is one example of using two different techniques on one trip. Bear in mind that the trip is actually broken into four quarters, with each quarter defined by a down spike defined by a 30 second water break at each 2.1 mile segment. Each quarter is a reverse that is into or with the conditions. Same person, same trip, same physicsl state, same conditions. One shows what happens when you just paddle like a donkey and paddle harder. The extreme spikes shows how the body overloads then shuts down to recover. During that recovery phase, all the progress made by paddling harder just burns off energy reserves that can’t be replaced. Immediate energy replenishment doesn’t come from eating a power bar or a basket full of bananas to compensate and recharge. In fact, eating simply diverts blood from muscles to the stomach and intestines to aid in digesting the food. It takes 24 hrs to replenish usable energy. That’s one of the reasons why sleep is important for recovery and why forty-eight hour recovery is recommended following an extensive workouts that focus on specific muscle groups. That doesn’t mean that different muscle groups can’t be targeted during the recovery. It’s important to understand how the body can shut down other functions to concentrate on recovery and repair. For example, if your trip relies mainly on the muscles involved in torso rotation, the muscles of the shoulders and biceps are largely untapped. The bulk of my trips use torso rotation in the aerobic mode. If I balance the output and reserve the muscle glycogen in my arms and shoulders, the app speed graph displays a speed plateau above my average speed during the last two miles (20 to 25 minutes) of the trip. If the speed graph shows erratic speeds or a drop off below the average, that is evidence that I overused those muscle groups to overcome adverse conditions. I’m not suggesting that anyone should follow my suggestion and monitor performance to the same degree. Rather, I’d suggest suggest that anyone who asks the question about “How can I go Faster?” They should measure technique and performance. The three times I didn’t have the deck mounted GPS, I was able to anticipate and estimate my avg speed to within .1 mph, as recorded on the phone app locked in the waterproof Pelican case attached to my seat strap (once I left the GPS home and only had the data from the phone in my Pelican water proof case; another time the battery died mid trip; another time I failed to clear the previous trip so the readout included the drive over to the launch site making the avg speed worthless).

Despite Craig and I using completely different techniques (different paddle type/length/sq inch blades/brands; high angle vs. low angle; feathered vs. unfeathered; slower cadence vs. high cadence), we both enjoy similar benefits. What I took away from the time I watched him testing the 180 Tempest, by paddling with him, and viewing the video of him paddling the 180 Tempest, it wasn’t the smoothness of his technique but the effortless, relaxed execution. Steve, you desribed the same execution watching your friend. Speed happens in one of two ways. You can waste energy flogging the water like you’re beating dust out of a dirty carpet, or you can focus on efficiency. Watching paddlers in the distance, you can see the inefficiency of the paddle stroke that looks like a lumberjack chopping wood using an ax that has a head on both sides of the handle, or shoveling snow with a scoop on both sides of the handle. Imagine shoveling snow the way you hold a high angle paddle. The suggestion is to keep the blade close to the keel line to keep the boat tracking straight (works for a canoe, as long as you j-stroke at the end or do something like a rudder-stle correction with the paddle). If you think that technique is efficient and effective, try it while shoveling snow. Shovel snow with a two bladed shovel fir 45 minutes, 2 hours, 8 hours. Try it with different square inch blades. Ok, not the same thing, but does it offer the best mechanical advantage. Can you keep the blade perpendicular to the effort (or does the kayak paddle skitter, slip, oscillate, flutter, form bubbles on the blafmde that feel like you’re stirring a coctail topped with seltzer water.

You don’t need a GPS or heart rate monitor to improve, but it helps you to become more sensitive to the performance output. Once you become sensitive to your breathing, tension, the rythem of the boat, the resistance of the paddle against the water and the sound the of the bow wake, you are on the path to efficiency. The splashless catch shows that your freind is matching his stroke to the speed of the boat. When your paddle splashed at the catch, it shows that you’re overpowering the paddle. If you doubt that, slap the surface of water with your hand and see what happens, feel the shock of the impact. That splash is wated energy. Its one thing to waste energy in a sprint and a different matter when your goal is covering 30 miles. A 400 meter sprint. A 1,000 meter sprint or a 3 mile sprint for a person in peak physical condition is only just tapping the energy reserves (about 15 to 30 minutes of glycogen energy reserves).

Compare the concept to what you know well - shooting. Having high energy in a heavy bullet has obvious benefits, but what happens to the energy when a bullet over penetrates. Do you need a .300 Winchester Magnum for both an elk and a prairy dog, or would a more efficient round be sufficient? The question isn’t about trajectory, range, or resisting deflection by the wind or objects along the flight path - it’s about whether there is any benefit to using the components to accomplish the goal and whether overkill was necesssry. So back to paddling. How much energy is needed to cover a given distance? Do you have the energy reserves to waste? Do you even care, or do you just paddle until you get tired and go home? If my math is right, a two mile race at an avg speed of 5 mph takes 20 minutes.

You understand that if you verify the two mile course by using a 7.5 min topo map or an accurste nautical chart, and check the time to cover the distance, you can verify the accuracy of the GPS or app. It has nothing to do with algorithmic equations, satellites, dumbing down the output to prevent adversaries from using the technology, and all the astute BS that intellectuals conjur to look intellectual. The relative accuracy is easy to verify. There’s no ignoring the reality that today, you can program your phone to determine travel time to a destination that’s 100 miles away and arrive within minutes of the estimate. Ot even calculates alternate routes. I recall discussion on this forum that dispute the accuracy of car speedometers. The realitt is that you can set the speed control on your car at 60 mph, and start the time at the mile marker, then check the time to reach the next mile marker, and find that it’s 60 seconds (what is thecratebof error if its actially off by +/- one second). So try it over ten miles. I actually covered the difference in avg speed if the distance is an error of +/- .3 miles, or one to two minutes. The degree of error is insignificant, and I’m still waiting for a rebuttal.

Tunnel vision is dangerous. I doubt that many people really know how Captain Blithe traveled nearly 4,000 miles to hit Timor, how ships traveled oceans using hand drawn charts, measuring speed with an hour glass and a board attached to a rope with knots in it. Yet, the accuracy of a GPS is challenged. That defies logic.

Steve, watch your friend and copy his style. Stop focusing on power and learn to relax. How your paddle eases into the water for a splash free catch is what you should try to achieve, then keep increasing your effort until you lose the splashless entry and back off. If your joints or muscles burn, your body will shut down to keep from going into oxygen debt. It takes longer to clear out the Co2 than it does to prevent Co2 building up in the first place. This may sound silly, but put a skillet on the stove and burn the contents. Are you better off to turn on the exhaust fan before the pan starts to smoke or wait until the room is full of smoke before you turn on the fan?

We both have the same paddle. Based on our discussions, I know you are a stronger paddler and capable of higher speeds while covering greater distances. Yet I still believe you’re overpowering the paddle and wasting energy in the stroke. Evidence to support my opinion is your muscle soreness. You’re stroke gives you speed, but it cuts your endurance. You’re still powerul and fit enough to absorb the excess energy output. The first step is focusing on the clean catch that your friend achieves. Then start from there. Slow is fast? Make sure your paddle blade gets maximum resistance and that it locks in the water rather than moving through the water. The paddle has to be as stationary as possible. If the paddle is fluttering, its moving through the water, not providing resistance to move the boat. Period! Flutter is the paddle moving! Period! (I expect the retort of “all paddles move . . . !”). I’m looking for an alternate answer to explain why your friend manages a splash free entry . . .

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I have come to all the same conclusions., what i lack yet is a perfected form. it’s substantially improved in 4-5 years but still not perfect. And if it is perfect I can’t keep it there for a 12 hour day. Lastly, there is no one I can compare myself too close to me to strive to copy a better paddler. I have met a few face to face but had only hours to get tips and coaching in parson, not days or weeks. So the REALLY good kayakers I have met in 5 years have given me about 5 hours of coaching for all of them combined. Because I am on the water more than anyone else in my area I am the fastest and most skilled around here that I know of, but that doesn’t mean I am good or skilled. it means that I am at the top of a bunch of paddlers who may be at the bottom.

Helen Wilson lives in Lander Wyoming, but won’t speak to anyone or coach unless you can catch her on her time and pay her A LOT for just a few hours and I am unable to pay what she demands. On the last correspondence I had with her on e-mail she told me she charged $175 per hour to talk on the phone. I can’t imagine what she’d charge to teach fact to face, but I cannot pay $175 an hour for anything. (I guess I am not favored by USAID)

So what I will do is try to concentrate on what I have seen in person, and what I can glean from phone calls and videos. But the real reason I don’t expect to “improve” much in speed is that speed is not a goal of mine. I see rough water skills and endurance as more interesting.

I suppose I could set a goal to go faster, but for what I am doing, faster means less time on the water and less time is the opposite of what I like. It has it’s uses (and I have used it a few times.) But it’s not a measure of anything important in my little world. Talking to my sister and her groups of friends who go to Alaska, they do have GPS and they go out for weeks at a time up there, but the distance I am traveling on my mountain lakes and reservoirs here in Wyoming, Montana and Utah per day are almost 2X what they are doing from camp to camp in Alaska and all have assured me I have no worries about keeping up.
What I do keep in mind as important to me is chop, waves and wind. Ocean conditions can be way bigger than any lake conditions around here, so I like going out when the waves are trying to capsize me and learn to deal with them because that’s a more likely skill I’d need later rather than getting to the next camp faster.

Now none of them makes me “right” and someone else "wrong’ It’s just a different part of the game. I see it like 2 shooters who love shooting but one loves Trap shooting with a shotgun and another loves rifles, shooting at known distances.
Who’s right?
Who’s better?

Those are the wrong questions.

And giving 100% good advice on how to improve the score from 92 to 100 in a “100 strait shoot” is interesting to the rifleman, but not something he has a focus on.
Neither is going from a 220 to a 250 on the KD course to the shotgunner.

Any top shooter with any gun is usually pretty good with others guns too, but like shooting, there will be an aspect that hold the most interest to different shooters in different categories of the shooting sports.

My interest in “speed” is really not that at all. It’s actually an interest in efficacy. What is undeniable is that if I can go 20-30 miles with less effort or less fatigue it’s because I am doing something better than I used to do, and the speed is just an indicator I am getting better. Speed is a ruler. A gauge.
Not a goal.

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We end up cross messaging about speed. If I had a pure interest in speed, I’d buy a faster biat. But that wouldn’t make me faster, just that I would be paddling a faster boat. Do what you want to do. If you wabt to go faster, do what everybody else does, and just paddle harder. When you get tired, paddle slower.

The questikn is whether you want to mimic you friend or Paulo who seem to move effortlessly. That isnt about speed, it’s about economy of motion. That isn’t a bad thing you know. My father had a saying, “think like a mule, work like a mule!” My saying is, “It’s easy to be stupid.” Especially if you dont mind going nowhere fast.

As the complacent like to say, “Speed isn’t everything.” I think iike that while I relax in a restaurant., while everybodynis screaming about the bowling championship going on today.

Second dlcup.od coffee. That’s slow . . .

I actually don’t care if they use my data or not - I actually appreciate the challenge.

Last Race season I took 4th overall in the Touring Kayak class (I blame a bad start for some of this.) and first in the Seniors class Touring boar division.

that wasn’t the crowing achievement for me, it was that I finally beat my friend I met at the races, we have the friendly rivalry by 23 boat lengths and namely because he was my 10 years my junior. Had to prove an old fart could hang with those at the peak of their game.

Took 4 months off to blob out and I’m back to training.

Still not at 3 miles yet but nearly.

Last Thursday I was at 2.6 miles in 20 minutes - but was completely spent after.
Today I’m at 2.9 Miles in 22 minutes 30 Seconds. and still had a lot of gas in the tank.

Holding an average Stroke rate of 46 SPM with a Max of 62.

The numbers for racing are where they need to be but nothing is where it needs to be.

I was running VO2 Max for 61% of the run. So definitely out of shape. Last year at same numbers I was never hitting Vo2 Max or If I did it was only 1% of the time. the bulk of it was evenly spread between Aerobic and Anaerobic.

right now the bulk is in the Anaerobic Zone but it’s slowly coming up, it’ll probably take another month or three to stay Aerobic for 90% of a 3 mile run.

If I overlay my heart rate to my SPM I’m all over the place for the first two minutes then I finally settle down to consistent. for the rest of the run.

of course mapping all the data my trainer says my training load is way too high, but I’ve been to this rodeo before and by summer it’ll be where it needs to be as I get back into race shape.

suffice it to say I’m happy with where I am for starting sometime mid January.

@szihn from what I’ve found and probably holds true for you, I found I can easily push any hull to about 80% give or take a few percentage points either way of it’s calculated hull speed. So if find that as pretty much a good benchmark of what I can expect out of a given touring and Rec Hull.

Racing hulls are another matter as john pointed out they really maximize the wetted hull line, and minimize bow wake to allow them to break the laws of physics as I know them for paddling.

As for form, I’ve been paddling since 15, so nearly 45 years, and though my form is good and appear effortless, it’s still far from perfect but what id does do is allow me to work within my body’s constraints and how it likes to do things all while conserving energy. When I go for the sprint at the last 500m of a race my form goes all to hell as I’m trying to lift my cadence to around 75 SPM so go figure.

It’s right for me and probably wont work for anyone else.

but like it or not I’ve probably conditioning wise have exceeded the capability of my boats, and really the only way to go faster is to have a faster hull. I’ll have to see if my fat ass fits in a 18’ Stellar and take it for a test run since it also probably a 6.5 KT hull, based on length but looks to have bow optimizations to minimize bow wake.

Now if only the boss would approve the funds transfer…

Agree that it doesnt matter to me if anyone uses the data I provide. I give the detail so it can be tested. I was always a strong paddler, probably close to Steve and maybe you when I was a young’un. Now I’m busted up and plumb wored out, but I analyzed info from both you and Steve and what I learned put me back in the running. The irony is that our paddling technique is night and day different, and Steve favors the Greenland Paddles, but neither you or I care for that style.

The key is to adapt and overcome. I just need to get out more.

Yes, overall I still favor the GL but I am forced to admit the use of the high end carbon euros exceeded my expectations. The Kalliste has shown me an ease and efficiency in 2 of my 3 touring kayaks that I was not able to get very close to with the cheepie plastic and aluminum paddles I had before, and the one “good paddle” my wife has it solid and has a feather built in, which I do not like at all. Since I got the Kalliste from you, I have also got 2 other high-end carbon paddles and hybrid paddles, but the Kalliste is the best of the lot. When in my Chatham I do a bit better with the Aqua Bound Eagle Ray, and then only when I am trying to go top speed.

The thing about the Greenland paddle is that it is supposed to shed a bit of water off the top edge when used correctly, so it becomes super stable and solid in the power phase of the stroke. Max “efficiency” is not a consideration but ease of use is.
Some die-hard GL fan tell me a Greenland paddle is just as fast as any euro paddle. And there are more then just a few who say that, but so far I can’t see how it could be if speed was the only consideration.
I have found the difference between my best speeds with the Kalliste and my largest GL to be slight. Far less then many say it would be. But so far my times are NOT as fast with my GL as my best times with the best euros. How much difference?
I don’t know because of my so-so measuring system, but over legs close to 3 miles or so the difference has been a few dozen seconds, not minutes.

But the results from my very limited times runs have been consistent. So maybe there are some GL paddlers out there that can go as fast or even faster with GL paddles as with euro paddles, but I am not one of them.
What I can do and I do do is feel a LOT more stable and secure in very rough conditions with my GLs then I do with my euros. The reach and the ease of bracing resistance in any director and on either side of my kayak is just easier and more intuitive with my GL and Alaskan paddles.
Much of that may simply be the time with a wood GL in hand over the time with a carbon paddle in hand so this may not be a teat of paddles at all. It may be a test of me (Probably is)

In defense of the GL paddle I will say I believe it is an easier tool to learn with and overall easier to use for choppy conditions and very easy to learn rolls with.
But for all-out speed I am still of the opinion a good euro is faster. Not very much faster, but some, and consistently so, from what I have seen so far.

I’ve used my CF Greenland paddle and my Euro’s (both of which are about the same blade surface areas.) The GP is much easier to paddle, at-least that’s my impression but I still have to give it a 15 degree feather. I paddle my Euro’s at 60 deg feather. (tell me you learned to paddle in White water without telling me.)

So I’d probably do better if I could manage to get the GP to 0 deg.

Now full disclosure here, I haven’t tested the GP to the extent I’ve put Euro’s through their paces. Literally I know the Euro’s in my garage just by looking at them within .1-.2 mph.

I found on the one test I did GP vs. Euro that the GP performed, about .2-.4 Mph slower than my euro’s.

My best Euro in my Tsunami 175 net’s me about 5.8 mph. my worst Euro is about 5.4 mph, the GP put me about 5.2/5.3 mph. As I got better using it and adapting to more low angle I was able to eeek more speed from it. but I don’t see in racing anyone in that boat and hull hitting 5.8 mph with one.

However it was easier to paddle so maybe if I was envisioning a 30 mi paddle I’d opt for the GP as that becomes a marathon as opposed to a sprint. and the .4 mph probably isn’t going to be a real effect. (especially if you consider my average speed at 10 and 15 miles drops to 5mph with a euro and fatigue is setting in.) so over longer distances I think it may be of benefit.

but in racing 3/5/10 miles no one I’ve ever seen uses a GP paddle for the races, they all use Euro’s, both high angle and low, and Wing Paddles regardless of boats.

So I may be spot on regarding speeds with GP vs. Euro. Otherwise I would expect to see a few racers there with them. Well they do have them I see them attached to boats but they aren’t being used for the races.

Now for “touring” I do see more GP than Euro. and from my own experience it’s a lot easier to roll with a GP than a Euro. mostly for a roll you can apply much more torque with a GP. (Grab the blade tip, and the loom as the fulcrum and make the roll.) I’m not saying you cant so with a euro I just find it easier with a GP.

When I go far, I carry two paddles my GP and Euro, I’m more familiar with the Euro, so I use that but I’ve had paddles break so I keep the GP as a backup and it stores nicely in and on the boat.

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Craig let me use his Ikelos 230 cm and his gearlab Greenland. The Ikelos is too short for me, but I didn’t find the 7 sq in larger blade area to be harder to paddle. I think because the 20 cm shorter length dave me greater leverage in the swing. I don’t like short paddles.

I was intrugued that my homemade 2x4 paddle superimposed over the Gearlab was a near perfect match. Mine had finer edges, but it weighed more. Both performed in a similar manner.

There is no way a smaller square inch blade can match the resistance of a larger blade, unless the paddler matches the speed of the boat. As soon as the paddle starts to slip, the propulsion stops. An experienced paddler could probably match a Euro, but I think the Euro in the same hands would give that experienced paddler a grester edge, maybe. I di realize speed is not always needed or desired. It’s worth pointing out that the cant needed for the Greenland adds stability by bleeding off water in one direction. Unless someone can explain otherwise, I still believe that flutter, cavitation, bubbles, oscillation or what anyone cares to call it, is the result of the paddle slipping rather than grabbing water. I had energy to waste when I was 60 yrs old, but I’m more reserved now.

Your experimenting with the ridge down the centerline is interesting, and I can see how you like the symmetry of the Greenland. I can’t get the same propulsion from the Greenland.

As @Craig_S noted, you’re not going to see a racer using a GP. As far as speed and efficiency, a GP may get close, but they don’t match a wing paddle, used correctly, for the forward stroke. However, a wing paddle does not work as well for other strokes, bracing, or rolling.