I'm prejudiced. Apparently not alone

Advice
#81

The real issue is not the rec kayaks but the inexperienced kayaker thinking they and their boat can do things far above expected.

If you put an inexperienced drunk in a $3000 kayak and he paddles it out alone, he will still end up being a rescue candidate.

Instead of belittling their starter kayak (like your first car wasn’t a brand new top of the line vehicle, this is many people first kayak), work with them to understand its limits and how they can improve the experience with a little more money invested in a better kayak, how they need to practice self rescue, wear a PFD, etc.

A good group leader will let someone know that their kayak and skills are not up to a paddle. It saves a lot of complaints.

6 Likes
#82

Great idea brianmurfy…seems logical and simple. However history of doing what you suggest creates more animus by newer & untrained paddlers against experienced group paddling leaders. It is why most of my paddles are now “by personal invitation” only. The meetup paddles I lead almost always get complaints because the paddles are too simple and do not go to the “fun” locations/destinations (my note: since advanced skills/equipment are needed for everyones safety).

#83

While our Club does not certify or require certification of our volunteer trip leaders or trip participants, we rate our trips and provide a fair amount of information to people to judge whether or not they should consider whether or not to participate. In addition if a potential participant is not known to the trip leader they will be screened by the trip leader as far as skills, boat, and equipment.

It’s rare that someone has to be turned away, but better that than endangering the individual or group. We have many members that are willing to teach basic skills for free and ACA or BCU certified instructors that will offer paid classes on their own for a very reasonable fee.

1 Like
#84

Well as seldom as I post here, mainly because of the attitude of folks like string, it is nice to know he seems to remember me.

He has more than once posted threads choosing to bash the boat rather than question or even understand the level of experience of the person choosing the boat. He is not the only one here with an elitist attitude about what is a worthy kayak. It is nice to see that there are some folks here who understand that it is more about the paddler than the craft in determining what can be done with it.

Perhaps many of you have read a book called “Paddling North” by a lady whose name escapes me at the moment. What she did at the age of 60 and beyond with a 9 foot inflatable kayak speaks much more about her knowledge and ability than about the worthiness of her boat.

Thanks for remembering me string.

1 Like
#85

You’re welcome Bill. After all, we’re practically neighbors.

#86

Maybe some of the comments are elitist (I’ll confess to being a canoe snob) or maybe folks are groping for ways to improve safety for inexperienced paddlers; I wonder about that when I see recreational paddlers on the water. With the warmer weather I’m running into lots of recreational kayakers (judging from the sound of their paddles banging into their boats) and just recently I was wondering if I’ve seen ANYONE else wearing a PFD this year. I try to make sure that I’m prepared for the conditions I paddle in and also prepared to help others and I give advice when the situation allows it but I don’t tell strangers that they should wear a PFD since I don’t think it would help. But for friends and acquaintances and folks in the neighborhood I reinforce the dangers of our local river every chance I get.

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#87

Beautiful.

#88

The woman was Audrey Sutherland. “In a tale remarkable for its quiet confidence and acute natural observation, the author of Paddling Hawaii begins with her decision, at age 60, to undertake a solo, summer-long voyage along the southeast coast of Alaska in an inflatable kayak. Paddling North is a compilation of Sutherland’s first two (of over 20) such annual trips and her day-by-day travels through the Inside Passage from Ketchikan to Skagway.”

Get back to Audrey Sutherland herself and you find out that she had paddled for decades before those trips, from when she was in her 20’s. By the time the Alaska trips happened she had more time in a kayak than most of probably ever will. Quote from an article about the “Paddling North” adventures -
" Audrey preaches practice and preparation.

She was a mother, an ex-wife, a school counselor, a teacher, a fisherman, who—at 61—loaded up an inflatable boat and donned a yellow rain suit and a blue wool cap to paddle 600 miles from Ketchikan to Skagway. She would return yearly for two decades to paddle the north. It took dedication to get there, planning to make it happen, and preparation to survive it.

She was meticulous in her preparation and route planning. She spent months researching and packing, and was always improving on her paddle camping setup.

Her gear was multi-purpose and somewhat creative (including the many uses of wine-box bags: shower, seat, float…). She tested hear gear and physically readied herself with practice like intentionally capsizing and righting herself.

The emphasis on preparation, really, demonstrates what anyone can accomplish with clear goals: “Doing what you want to do isn’t a question of can you or can’t you, but deciding what your ultimate desire and capability is and then figuring out the steps to accomplishment. It’s ‘I’m going to. Now how? What gear will I need? What skills will I need? What will it cost? When will it happen? When I succeed, what next?’”"

I wish to heck that the paddlers in inappropriate craft being spoken about here had a tenth of the background and preparation that she did.

#89

Thank you for the detailed summary. I’ve read the book and am aware of her history and expertise. I completely agree with your statement about paddler experience or lack thereof. That is actually my point.

What I have read a lot of here is another example of people blaming the tool rather than the user. Not everybody but many continually tell people that this or that kayak or canoe is junk and they will never be able to do anything with them. The only reasonable answer is get something better. Spend the money and get a “quality” boat whether new or used. That is the only right way.

It is the people who need to get better first. They can do much more without spending a fortune if they just learn how. And some of these lesser boats are more capable than they are given credit for.

1 Like
#90

Actually, I and most here have advocated again and again for newbies to try and hook up with some basic lessons. I don’t think you are being entirely fair about that.

But like everything else that people don’t want to hear, it too often goes into the circular file.

#91

Yes many people on here often advocate getting lessons or coaching. Even some of the people who I am complaining about have done so. But many of them also talk out of both sides of their mouth. They also trash talk many of the less expensive options for getting into paddling. They focus more on telling you what you can’t do with those boats when often someone with the interest and motivation but not the funds can do a lot more with them.

#92

Telling strangers that they need pfds can even be counterproductive. Almost invariably they reject your advice, continue on their way without a problem, which then confirms their opinion. Some likely tell their friends that some jerk told them to wear a pfd, thereby spreading their opinion to others.

#93

I dont think I have ever seen a serious post on here from a newbie who said “I want to take my Sundolphin down Fatlazyriver on Sunday afternoons in mid summer, any suggestions on PFD?” ever being dissuaded from doing so. A lot of, “If you like it we can help you spend your money to do more” But never “Not a good idea” posts when the boat and paddler are matched to the job even if the poster is pushing it a bit. You CAN take a 10’ fishing SINK of a multi day river trip. You better pack like a backpacker.
I have seen plenty of new posters asking about stuff like; which class 4 WW should they start with in their new Dicks special while sitting on their orange horse collar vest. How they should pack the Walmart.com boat for the boundary waters because they want to take a dutch oven and weigh 280#… on the moon… . What kind of string to use to tie the boat to their roof. How can they roll their SOT fishing kayak…I have read a lot of those posts being answered, that isnt the tool for the job and you are putting yourself at risk.

I have seen a little snobbery when it comes to kayaks here from some who see “sea kayak” for example and no matter what you tell them the use will be, they insist that their brand/construction/ style is the ONLY way to use it. I still see that when expedition kayak on a river comes up. Rivers are not open water, and not all rivers are the Colombia.

No worse than a gun forum and a lot better than a hunting forum here :slight_smile: People are people. No different than a person saying they plan on hunting moozes with a 22LR and others that say you need a Remchesteravage in tree hunnert win MAG to hunt dem deers at the avg range of 35 yards.

#94

Yep. I guess hyperbole is the best way to refute what I am saying. I’ll go back to my lurker status. Sorry I jumped in and offended some folks.

#95

Did I tell you about the time I went rat hunting with my 44 mag? They were ferocious rats so I carried my 357 for back up and kill shots when I wounded one. I also carried my 10mm with man killer loads in case I got lost in the hood.
I also had my Spyderco throat slasher as my final fail safe.

#96

So when a newbie is asking what WW he should try in a Dicks boat, he is to be encouraged? Because that WAS an actual question posted here. Not hyperbole. As were the multiple ones getting rec boats and planning multi day river trips before ever getting the boat wet.

The others were exaggerated to lighten the mood, yet all have been asked in one form or another.

2 Likes
#97

I view this a little different than others here. I’m also relatively new to the forum and new to paddle boats. I bought an OT canoe for myself and we bought her an OT 10’ fishing kayak that will be used strictly as a rec kayak after a lot of looking around for used and new. Dicks sporting good was where we found it and as far as rec kayaks go something like the OT boats are somewhat on the better end of the rec kayaks from what I could see.

I wasn’t satisfied with ether boat from a safety point of view. We bought decent quality PFDs and paddles I did a lot of work on the canoe adding flotation bags to each end and also adding bow flotation to the rec kayak. We tested the changes and both boats can be recovered drained with a bailer we both carry or a hand pump bilge I carry in the canoe. I designed and built an assisted rescue device that allows us to reenter ether boat from the water and we plan on testing and improving our skills at doing that. We respect the water and are not afraid of it. We watch the weather before we head out plan our trips and we watch the weather when we are out. We pay attention to how far from shore we are at and weather and water conditions regulate that distance.

Even with all that there is always risk on the water. I know what it is like from my youth and power boating to be in the middle of Lake Erie and have a weather change and making a mad dash back to safe harbor in some big seas. We have no desire to be out there in our little paddleboats, and we have scaled back appropriately.

We will paddle on smaller lakes and the main river we will paddle is French Creek as it is in our back yard. It is in someway the lazy river @Varmintmist described but after a good rain the next day it picks up a bit. Many people have drowned in it though. Last time we went down a tree had fallen covering a third of the width on a tight bend creating a classic strainer situation. The current even though it wasn’t what I would call fast wanted to take you thru it. I saw it coming from a good distance and mentioned to those with me to be aware. We had no problem going around it and if we couldn’t we wouldn’t have had problems pulling out before it. It was observation not the boats we had that played a role in our safety. We watched others in rec boats no flotation following us get to close and get tangled in it and manage to work their way out of it. Could have been a big mess on an otherwise lazy river float.

People are going to buy these boats and use these boats. Most are not going to come to these sites for more knowledge but some will and the ones that do I’m hoping will find one of my posts explaining that these rec kayaks and cheap canoes can be used and can be made better along with learning something about what you are doing and it is the real world and not a ride at an amusement park.

It does no good to turn them away or just tell them they need something better, and when I’m dealing with others on the water if they are willing for advice I will gladly give some. The rec boats are here to stay I say when possible help people understand their place and maybe even how to make them even better

#98

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Rec boats at their best.
I’ve had the Tarpon out in some rough stuff(whitecaps with troughs) and the Pungo where small waves broke over the bow. No problem with either.

#99

My regret is I wasn’t out there with them.

#100

Many of us do not live near or on waters such as you describe. I live in Arkansas and we have many rivers and streams that that size boat is perfect for. I realize that for whatever reason this board is skewed to an entirely different element and the boats you recommend are not suitable everywhere. Just saying.