there are few if any kayaks that i know of that have a rudder, Valley or Kayak sport hatches, 3 bulkheads and a day hatch. in thinking about fast, slender touring kayaks, i am drawn more and more to the notion of having a rudder for efficiency, but i also like rubber hatches and a day hatch.
it seems to me that the Force series boats would lend themselves well to a rudder system to put them in the ranks of boats like the QCC 700, CD Nomad, Seda Glider, and a number of others, but with a better system of hatches and deck layout.
for fans of these boats, and Impex, does this seem like as good an idea to you as it does to me?
Valley custom order with rudder?
I thought valley would install rudder system on
there boats if special ordered. Paul Caffin had
rudders on his nordkapps.
Rudders?
we don’t got no rudders, we don’t need no stinkin’ rudders! 
No
"does this seem like as good an idea to you as it does to me"
No. It seems like a very poor idea to me. I’m not sure what would be gained by a rudder on a Force. I rather think it would ruin it. It is a superb boat for what it was designed to be. It tracks very well overall, but when needed it trims with a skeg beautifully. Yet it is quite manuverable when leaned. Seems there are boats designed for or well suited for a rudder so why try to hack a boat into one. Its not like there aren’t excellent boats for every taste already.
Got Drill?
Sounds like either you’ve got a Force 4 & a DIY project or a custom order with no skeg and a factory installed bushing & cable tubes.
If you’re going to be the guinea pig, please let us know how it turns out. In the meantime I’ll be happy with the skeg on my K-Lite F4.
See you on the water,
Marshall
The River Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
Option on Kajak-Sport boats
Rudders have been an option on Kajak-Sport boats and were also on Valleys
no such project but
it just seems like the kind of speedy boat that might benefit from a rudder, which would expand it’s appeal to those kayakers who prefer the efficiency of a rudder for touring. i’d love a Force 5 myself, but i’m pretty happy with my current 2 boats…
Efficiency
The skeg is located quite rearward in this boat and when all the way down gives you all the straight-ahead tracking authority you could possibly want. I’m not sure how a rudder would be any more efficient at that sort of thing.
It provides much more leverage to the hull than the one in my previous boat, a CD Caribou. The skeg in that one was located further from the stern.
SK calculated drag numbers for the Force 4/5 were good for a British-influenced boat design (similar to Aquanaut, for example). They weren’t a match for something like an Epic 18 however.
Mike
is that right?
given the dimensions, i would have figured the Force would have been further ahead of boats like the Aquanaut. is there any comparative data? where’s Wilso on this, i’m sure he has this at his finger tips…
The next level
Perhaps it is a good candidate for fast touring with a rudder.
Or, jump to the next level and install this baby-
http://www.kari-tek.co.uk/SkegSystems.html
Then you can write a report on it.
I have a UKSK (nee NDK) Triton I have been thinking about retrofitting with the skeg/rudder.
As far as rudders go, underhull rudders are far better than over stern rudders when the condition are three dimensional. But landing with them (nearly all underhull rudders are fixed) can be a nightmare. The folding feature on the kari-tek unit could be just the ticket.
soundrowers has data
I believe force 4 & 5 are considered fast sea
kayak catagory where as aquanaut is in the class
below this listed as touring kayaks.
Calculated numbers from SK
– Last Updated: Apr-07-08 10:54 PM EST –
Kaper/Taylor lbs drag
Aquanaut:
5 knots 7.42/7.30
6 knots 13.3/12.51
Force 5:
5 knots 7.53/7.24
6 knots 13.14/13.32
Epic 18:
5 knots 6.47/6.38
6 knots 11.27/10.66
Subjectively, with my Force 4 I've never felt like it was anything other than me limiting speed, with the Caribou as the season went along and I got stronger I sometimes felt the boat was coming into play a bit. One of the reasons I made the switch. And that's at 4-4.5 knots average.
While the raw dimensions may indicate a fast boat with flat rocker the hull shape is pretty tubby around the middle so the underwater part probably acts like a shorter boat than the overall length implies.
Mike
Shop for Scandinavian kayaks NM
indeed!
– Last Updated: Apr-08-08 12:30 AM EST –
very interesting Karl. i've seen the new Ktech skeg in a few new NDK's and they have received nearly universal criticism from my peers, and instructors, including some of your friends. so many screws, big heavy thing, so unlike the simple sleek Valley skeg box and previous NDK one.
but i was unaware of this skeg/rudder option, it sounds brilliant. why aren't they doing more to promote it? even on the website it doesn't show the foot brace system, or say much about it, which surprises me as this would be a breakthrough development. many people i know have said that this would be 'the next level', if it could be engineered. it seems like a great low compromise option for those who want to maximize forward progress, and use little corrective strokes and edging while touring in adverse conditions.
do you know of any boat in your region that came with the skeg/rudder option, or ever seen one?
Fast kayak class
Presumably this assignment was done based on basic hull dimensions? Is there any race evidence this boat is the “one to have” in that class? Seems pretty unlikely.
Mike
point 65 n?
Don’t p65n offer a skeg and rudder option? Or is this something new?
if as advertised, completely new
– Last Updated: Apr-08-08 10:51 PM EST –
not a rudder and skeg on a boat, but a skeg, that acts like a rudder on demand. that's what it appears to be on the Kari-tek website and that Otterslide is making reference to. i know of no such animal, and this would seem to me to be revolutionary if it is a robust working system.
paddled 3 days ago Force5 and Aquanaut
and you can’t compare the two kayaks.
Aquanaut is very maneuverable and playful but pretty slow. Force5 is a a dream speed kayak that will ride any little wave or swell. It almost feels like a surf ski however it does turn decently when leaned or edged.
The Force5 would be ruined (esthetically) if with a rudder. I much prefer a skeg boat but admittedly it takes a bit of effort to learn how to kayak, not just paddle.
Gnarlydog
Boreal Design Labrador
18’4" by 21" Can be ordered with skeg or rudder. British style hatches and a third hatch. Nice looking kayak.
Cheers…Joe
Triton - Skeg/Rudder
Hey otterslide,
If you do that retrofit of the “skudder” on your Triton, let me know how it works out. I would be interested in doing the same on mine. That is one boat that certainly would be easier to handle with one!
Suz