The fabrics in the graph that have similar breathability to eVent (Entrant and Schoeller) are not known for being especially waterproof.
I have no doubt that eVent is extremely breathable and I don't need more evidence of that. While breathability is important, it's not the be-all and end-all of fabric properties, otherwise we'd all be wearing cotton all the time. What I want to see is data on how waterproof eVent is compared to other w/b fabrics. Is there anything about that in the article? I can't see paying for it if it doesn't contain the data I'm interested in.
With the NRS eVent drysuit in mind, when choosing a high cost garment, the waterproof-breathable advantage is only one factor to consider. The overall manufacturing quality and components such as zippers, latex gaskets, stitching, and accurate sizing proportions, along with the warranty are equally important for longevity and durability. Even with Gortex vs Event used, I might prefer the Kokatat products until more history on the NRS suit accumulates. Now if Kokatat eventually uses eVent with a strong warranty, it might be a no-brainer.
Hey guys, I am not a first adopter either. Just saying bears watching. The initial data I saw, and dang cannot find right now, shows eVent to be just as waterproof as Gore and more durable.
But yes, we have not seen it out for long enough to know real world results in a drysuit.
And, yes, I am staying with Kokatat until I see all the other stuff done well also.
B, the Schoeller and other stuff is NOT listed as waterproof. They were just showing how breatheable eVent is considering these fabrics are touted as highly breatheable and not even as water or windproof.
I am just trying as I get older to stay open to new things and not become what is called a Retro Grouch!
Gore warrants their fabric to be waterproof and breathable. That is why Kokatat is able to provide a such a strong warranty on their GoreTex products. When the makers of eVent fabrics offer the same lifetime fabric warranty to manufacturers as Gore does, eVent will become a significant competitor (and the price of garments will likely double as well).
For now, and based on previous experience, I have no interest in anything other than the Kokatat/Gore warranty and Kokatat’s customer service for such a critical piece of gear.
I have been using eVent fabric compression dry bags for a couple of years and like them a lot. So far no issues with them being waterproof, but they are also not submerged and stressed lake a drysuit is.
Supposedly eVent has been extensively tested at the US Army’s Soldier Systems Center, in Natick, Massachusetts. It would be nice to see the results of these tests. I would think that if eVent is a superior product to GoreTex for being waterproof/breathable/durable the next generation of military drysuits will be using that fabric no matter who has the contract to manufacture them.
Not connected to eVent manuf/dealer… …But, temperature inside may be a distinct issue, but when breatheability levels are high…a little water entering from outside doesn’t stay on your skin…as opposed to perspiration not wicked off, a very distinct difference.
Kansas City, Mo., March 16th, 2007 — Continually at the forefront of innovation and technology, eVent® fabrics introduces a new supercritical gas-based membrane treatment that further eliminates the need for a PU (polyurethane) coating while increasing performance of its waterproof breathable membranes.
The new treatment improves on eVent fabric’s durability while preserving its inherent open-pore structure and Direct Venting™ capacities. Additionally, the new treatment optimizes the membrane’s performance at cold temperatures.
Forerunners rely on hydrophilic (water-loving) PU membranes or an added PU coating. Adding PU makes a membrane oleophobic, or oil repellant. While it helps to block oils, the added PU layer also reduces the membrane’s capability to move moisture because it must become wet inside for it to transport moisture.
The eVent fabrics membrane has always been completely PU free, making it the only Direct Venting™ membrane among “breathable” peers.
Instead of coating the membrane with PU, eVent fabrics are treated with a patented hydrophobic polymer to achieve oleophobic properties. Utilizing the vast resources of eVent fabric’s parent company, General Electric, a new process of application is announced. eVent fabric’s oleophobic polymer is applied by means of a supercritical gas treatment, eliminating the use of solvents during the production process
This new technology enables both the gas and polymer to completely penetrate the pores of the eVent fabrics membrane, encapsulating each and every fibril during treatment.
This new process leaves no residue and treats the membrane on a structural level, retaining and enhancing the precious membrane properties. The process of application is patented and the polymer is patented pending.
The switch to eVent fabric’s new membrane treatment will take place gradually throughout 2007, and will be seen in the market by 2008.
The US Army’s Natick tests of waterproof-breathable laminates reported that eVENT fabric, a patented ePTFE-based membrane produced and marketed by BHA Technologies, Inc. proved to be the most breathable of all materials tested, averaging twice the breathability of its closest competitor. Testing included the likes of Gore-Tex XCR®, Sympatex®, and various other waterproof-breathable fabrics. “As a premium, technical brand, ground sought to utilize today’s top technologies to create our high-end apparel line,” stated ground’s CEO, Tucker Hacking. “After reviewing the government’s Natick testing we were sold on using eVENT fabric to achieve the technical pinnacle in our soft shell, hard shell and down product categories.”
Incidently, in looking into this I found evidence that Gore has been desperate to hang onto their market share. Part of this strategy has been
to obscure that they had to add the PU layer, and by doing so gore-tex suffers from reverse osmosis, i.e, if the outer fabric loses is DWR finish is will serious wet out, that is leak backwards losing its waterproofness. They are trying to make up for this by these offers of replacement like with Kokatat. IT is not they are generous, they are hanging onto market share.
eVent is dependent on the oleophobic treatment being 100% and holding up over time. So far it looks good that they are making a product that will do as it claims, breathe better and be durable. And it seems to me that the paper on GE making the product better may not just have been an improvement, but a NECESSARY change to make it durable and waterproof.
So man, i am totally in the camp of OK let’s see if it is what they claim. I hope so.
...nor does it match my experience with it. If the outer fabric wets out, it's backed by the PTFE membrane, which will not pass water, only vapor. I own a lot of Gore-Tex garments, most of which have less than effective DWRs (DWR is an oxymoron, IMO, as none of them are "durable") and they're waterproof whether the outer layer is wet-out or not.
As for the Gore Warranty, that has been in place for decades and it's for ALL manufacturers of Gore-Tex garments (I once sent back a North Face parka that started to delaminate and they replaced it, the only G-T failure I've experienced). Moreover, Gore will replace ANY Gore-Tex garment that suffers a fabric failure. If the manufacturer is out of business, they will replace it with a comparable garment from another manufacturer. There is nothing "desperate" about this, as it has been their policy almost from the beginning.
OK I will admit it, bought eVent drytop OK, I guess there is an exception to every rule. I have NEVER been a first adopter, and have been the debunker and scientific skeptic in tech and gear world and in other worlds as well.
But getting older and wanting to resist retro grouch tendencies creeping in on me, I compromised and bought an NRS eVent dry top. It appears to be extremely well made, has a generous warranty, clear instructions regarding care, great fit, and the quality of the seams, gaskets, and accessories are absolutely in line with Kokatat and some things even better.
It also has the advantage of not needing special care, i.e., can be rejuvenated by powdered detergent in no agitator washing machine does not need revivex, etc.
I am very hard on dry suits and gear so I will thoroughly trash it and report back.
gore outer layer can get contaminated and wet out causing reverse osmosis. But the most common problem is that the DWR wears out and seriously reduces the ability of the PU and membrane to breathe, making it seem as if it is leaking but really you are getting wet from your own perspiration.
I am interested in this from intellectually honest place not ego, so glad to learn from you and everyone. Learning I am wrong is an opportunity. So l am enjoying this. Thanks!
REI and E vent Speaking of E vent, I got completely soaked on a hike today, came home and happened to watch the youtube link video. It started me thinking… Maybe. But no more Event raingear on the REI site. They used to have it. Any one have an inside scoop?
license thing REI and eVent are arranging a license agreement I saw. They are going to be producing quite allot of eVent gear.
Bryan and others here understandably thought I was speaking against Gore inc. without facts, but I practice integrity of argument and try always to get my facts straight and state where I am coming from and admit when I am mistaken.
Gore has a well documented history of very rough and tumble marketing including deliberately hiding the fact that their product does NOT use vapor transmission, and very aggressive marketing including exclusive licensing agreements. This has resulted in eVent struggling to have manufacture and distribution. eVent was bought by GE and this has resulted in eVent beginning to have the muscle to be produced and distributed.
Regardless of how effective and eVent is and or becomes, I am for fair marketing practices that do not result in our being bombarded by false and overstated claims so that we do not have the best and safest products for cold water immersion.
I don't think anyone really cares HOW Gore-Tex works as long as it DOES work as advertised. Frankly, if Gore went into deep, technical explanations, most people probably wouldn't understand it or would just roll their eyes and move on. All that really matters is that it does what Gore claims it does (keeps you dry and breathes), which I don't think anyone would dispute.
For better or worse, it's the standard against which all other waterproof/breathable fabrics are compared. While eVent seems to have plenty of test data and testimonials attesting to it's breathability, I still haven't seen any data on it's waterproofness and it hasn't been around long enough to determine its durability.
I haven't seen much in the way of warranty information, either, so I suspect that will be up to the manufacturers. Gore's warranty is ironclad and many of us have experience with it and can attest to the fact that they absolutely stand behind garments made with their products. Again, this warranty is the standard of the industry and has been for at least a couple of decades.
As for their licensing agreements, I don't have a clue as to the "exclusive" agreements you elude to, but I do know that they won't sell their fabric to just anyone and that they test and certify all garments made with their fabric to perform to their waterproofness standard. If a design doesn't pass, it doesn't make it to the market, at least not with Gore-Tex fabric in it. Once more, this is unique in the industry, AFAIK. It takes a lot of guts to enforce this type of quality standard, as it makes it really easy for manufacturers to go elsewhere for their fabrics. Considering that and the premium price of Gore-Tex products, their market share is amazing!
As I've said before, I have no stake in Gore, I'm just a happy user of their products. My point is that Gore-Tex is a known quantity, backed up by industry leading customer service. Everything else on the market is subject to question. Many fabrics have come and gone over the years, but Gore-Tex is still here. It's easy to take pot-shots at the guy on the top of the heap and make claims about marketing, unfair practices, etc., but where's the evidence of that? Where are the lawsuits or FTC complaints against them?
The bottom line is that nobody has come out with a product that's better, or at least that's been proven to be better. If eVent turns out to be a better product, I'm all for it! Choice is a GOOD thing! But frankly, the "it breathes better" schtick has gotten really old. Show me that it's as waterproof and as durable as Gore-Tex and I'll be a convert. Barring that, I think we've pretty well beaten this horse to death.
OK OK. Sometimes two good people just need to disagree and still respect each other. That is my wish here. Good posts. Genuine thanks. I actually agree with most of what you have said. : > )
found a chart on Sierra trading post (source data unclear) which lists the waterproofness of Gore-tex and Event and their about equal (28000 vs 30 000 mm/24 hours). That said, there's a lot more to drysuit and its use/longevity than just the fabric.
What’s needed is the PSI rating… …as that will more accurately reflect the waterproofness of the fabric in use. This rating is important for a dry suit, since you’re sitting on a wet seat most of the time, plus your PFD and spray skirt will create pressure on the fabric.
NM