OK - things to consider
Thigh braces may be worth a look - it’ll give you a more solid position for your legs if you are “pedaling” as you paddle, one of the way to enhance rotation. You can get minicell foam and cut them roughly to shape, then glue them in and see how that works. Cheaper and a better way to make sure it’s right for you than to buy stuff from the kayak maker. It is possible that you are contorting to keep pressure on the foot pegs because you lack a secure anchor at midpoint in your legs
As to that seat - is it scooped so that your sitz bones are sitting deep into the rear portion of the seat? I am asking because I have one boat that went from a guaranteed backache at 2 hours to all day comfort by doing two things. One was that I cut out the foam so the seat overall tilted down a little, as mentioned above. The other thing was that I filled in the two lovely indents intended to cradle my tush so that the seat was actually pretty flat. I appreciate the manufacturer’s intention, but I need to be sitting on a rail to avoid a back problem.
Physical therapy
Before jumping into gym work that might actually cause injury, please consult with a good PT. He or she should be able to figure out what’s going on now and how to help you correct for imbalances in muscle strength.
Also, even if you improve the situation, it’s a good idea to stop now and then, maybe get out of the kayak and walk around. A change in position always feels nice after hours of any sports activity that requires sitting.
You might add some minicell foam pieces under the thighs if the seat pan is shorter than comfortable for you. It’s a cheap and easy modification.
After years of WW paddling
I finally wised up. You do not need to be tightly outfitted in your boat. Torso rotation that involves all of your torso (not just your shoulders) requires being able to straighten each leg, moving your butt, and leaning forward or back when required. In particular core strength and endurance is crucial. Now I simply loosen my back band in both my WW boats and sea kayaks. The back band is only there to keep me from the sharper edges of the coaming if I lean back. It only takes a short time to develop the core strength and endurance to not need the back band/seat back. The end result is less back trouble. I know because I used to have serious back pain problems. Paddling 8 hours is not a problem if you take sensible breaks. Forget about the higher seat back.
cheap option that might work
I have always generally preferred a Snapdragon back band or low similar seat-back but I have to admit that the inflatable low lumbar supporting back (and seat bottom) in my most recent Feathercraft (Wisper) is the most comfortable seating arrangement I’ve ever had. You can get a Feathercraft complete seat for around $175 and try to retrofit it to your boat. Pakboat also has a very comfortable inflatable seat (around $130). But we are planning to try to retrofit our other boats with bad seats (all flat and semi high cut) with a similar inflatable lumbar pillow that Sierra Trading post is currently selling for $15.
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,3249V_Crazy-Creek-Air-Seat-BackrestandCushion-II.html
This appears to be very similar to the Feathercraft backrest in dimensions and shape. And with the two detaching buckle straps we should be able to mount it over the existing seat backs support or use it to elevate our thighs to improve the hip and leg position.
In a day or two I can report back how these worked (they are due to be delivered by UPS tomorrow and if it stays as warm as it is today I plan to take one of the 'yaks out on the Mon River after work) – just wanted to suggest this to you while they were still in stock at STP. Seems like a cheap possible solution (and the pillow would be useful for other purposes if not.)
I also highly recommend the reverse back resistance machine (the one where you sit bent over and then stretch back slowly and straighten out against 100 lbs or so of weight). I have been using one regularly as part of my workouts and find it greatly extends the flexibility and endurance of my lower back muscles. Between that and using the effective rotational stroke that engages my abdominal obliques, I rarely have any trouble any more.
Actually, I;ve noticed when I paddle that I don’t rest against the seat OR back band much anyway – I notice the comfort of the Feathercraft seat on lazy, drift-downstream fastwater trips where I am more likely to lounge than paddle hard.
Vous exaggérez un peu
It’s not like seat backs are getting to be three feet tall, eh? Current improvements are tending toward better lumbar and thigh support—exactly what sea kayakers look for when they modify their seats. Most decent seats already offer adjustable forward lean.
“Luxurious” doesn’t mean “barcalounger.” It means “so well supported that a full day of kayaking doesn’t leave me crippled.”
Of course there’s marketing pressure. But don’t assume that every person who wants decent cushioning and support knows nothing about kayaking or ergonomics. Yes, those folks should be sending a strong message to manufacturers about what they want. If I spend $2000+ on a kayak, why should I have to rip out the seat and start over?
Seats do sell kayaks, I’m sure. Because what’s the use of a fabulous kayak that doesn’t provide comfort for your main point of contact?
You know, anyone who wants to move forward efficiently will figure out after 15 minutes that they need to be upright or leaning forward. They will adjust their seat accordingly. People who don’t care about speed and efficiency will lean back. To each his own. It’s all good—people out enjoying the outdoors in their own way.
“The small of the back rubbing
on the seat back”—where do you get this? I hear it all the time. It’s a myth. A properly designed and adjusted seat back doesn’t do that.
When I say “properly designed” I mean it has a bump that fits neatly into the curve of the small of the back. In other words, a lumbar support just like a good office chair. This one isn’t bad: http://store.neckykayaks.com/products/310591/Active_Comfort_System_%28ACS%29_Seat
This one is good too: http://www.eliesport.com/about-us/technologies-and-materials/ergoflex-seating-system-seat.html
Does it have to be either or with efficiency vs comfort? If so, designers aren’t doing their job. Anybody can make a backband, but it looks like it’s a challenge to make a seat that resembles the human body.
I assume that at your job you sit on a stool rather than a chair right? Don’t want to let those back muscles get too soft.
Tall seat backs inhibit proper technique
You can’t rotate your torso properly when it’s pinned against a tall seat back, unless you like being chafed. I can’t think of a single instance where I’ve seen someone with good paddling technique using a high seat back. Typically, what you see is people leaning back and arm paddling. Perhaps that’s all they need or want to do, but anyone who is actually interested in paddling efficiently is not going to be well-served by a tall seat back.
NSI Anatomic Backband?
You might want to consider an NSI anatomic backband. I had one in a Hurrricane Tracer I had for a while and I liked it. Reviews are on p-net at http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=910
David
a free idea that works
situps.
There is no seat in the world that can make eight hours of sitting inside a kayak comfortable if you don’t have fitness and good posture.
What do you mean by “tall”?
I set my seat back so the lumbar pad hits the lumbar area of my back. I can easily rotate my torso as far as it can turn naturally.
If it’s taller than your pelvis…
…it’s too tall.
Torso rotation
Something that can be unclear in these discussions - full torso rotation is meant to be rotation from the hips up by most of the coaches I've dealt with these days, thus includes rotating the low back. Some say rotation but only mean from a bit above the waist thru the shoulders. That's why pedaling is somewhat necessary for full rotation.
So something that is hitting the low back well, no matter how ergonomically, is likely to be a problem for anyone with really good rotation.
Also, most I know who really work on their stroke have added limbering exercises in to increase their range of rotation over what they had when they started paddling, and have to work on their rotation each spring after a winter of snow shoveling etc. So they are working on increasing what they would have otherwise.
Parallel to Bike Seats
There is a comment above that at the price of a good kayak, the seat should come set up to handle all takers well. I’m not sure that’s true.
There is lots of conversation around what constitutes a good bike seat, and a huge divergence of opinion and practice. The real estate being considered is less than that of a kayak seat, but you hit similar issues. There are adherents of seats with high levels of cushioning, with holes cut into them and of traditional hard seats with no special accommodation. You’ll see all of these on the road.
The way that bike manufacturers handle it is by making the seat a separate component in all bikes, and taking a default seat out of the pricing of a higher end bike. The seat, like the foot pedals or clips, is a separate decision that is a cost above the frame, chain wheels and derailleur assembly. (In highest end bikes all of this is separate.) Where a seat is included in the set, most people selling bikes assume they’ll be swapping out a fair number of them.
This means that traditionalists like myself can choose the old fashioned solid hard seat, and others can as easily get highly padded frameworks with holes like the old cavalry saddles. It handles the reality that one size will not fit all.
I believe that at least one kayak manufacturer - a Brit one maybe? - has offered their kayaks with or without a hung seat. The without option is for those who would rather custom cut something like a foam seat for themselves.
IMO, in this respect the bike folks are being more realistic in their expectations than many kayak manufacturers.
Good point
One problem with the current setup of kayak seats is that although you might be able to find another seat you find more comfortable, it can take a lot of sawing, filing, reshaping, etc. to install a new seat. Ideally, I think a seat should be easy to remove without causing any damage to the hull. Rails in the bottom (for sliding seats) are a pain. When you remove things like that you may lower the resale value of the kayak.
Re bike seats, manufacturers have put quite a bit of research into studying the anatomy of the human form, different biking positions and purposes, and ergonomic seat design. Some kayak manufacturers seem to be avoiding that research. That’s shortsighted because, as on a bike, a kayak seat is the major point of contact.
maybe
You just hurt your back. I paddled all winter but this spring when I got back at it hard my back was killing me. No seat is going to solve a sore back unless the seat is doing the hurting. And I think you would know in the first five minutes. Ask a doctor or just take some advil for a week and see if that helps.
Ryan L.
Nail on the head
I think you explained this very well. As a person very into fitness and Kinesiology, I think you are correct.
Anyone that thinks it’s good or OK to paddle around for 8 hours without lumbar support or even giving the muscles a rest, is asking for long term issues such as arthritis and muscle strain. The human body is not made for continuous load. This is coming from a man that can deadlift 400 lbs and has a VERY strong back in comparison to most people. Not trying to brag, just simply showing that even people with very strong back get fatigue and have the potential to cause damage if doing something incorrectly.
The way seats are being made in kayaks today are definitely a step in the right direction. Having a higher back on a kayaking seat does not enable poor posture… that simply makes no logical sense. There are different seats being made for different paddling styles.
When you look at the Liquid Logic “BadAss” outfitting, it is designed with a lower back mainly for whitewater kayaking. Having it lower definitely allows you to paddle more efficiently in those conditions, perform rolls, apply a sprayskirt, etc… That outfitting is extremely comfortable, but not for hours of paddling. Taking it down some rapids and then porting it to another spot is more like it. Paddling in a seat like that for long hours is more likely to promote bad posture than a high seat. Why? Because of muscle fatigue. Your body will start to slouch whether you think your back is made of steel and you’re an “experienced” paddler or not.
Touring kayaks and transitional kayaks have many adjustments to allow comfortable travel for long periods of time. Sure, they’re not ideal for hitting rapids in some cases, but they are ideal for long paddling sessions (3-5 hours uninterrupted). Depending on how tall you are depends on how high up you’d want the seat back. Also, leaning back on an appropriately adjusted seat back and paddling isn’t necessarily “bad”. Sure, you may not get the most efficient stroke but sometimes people aren’t looking for the most efficient stroke when this happens. They’re generally looking for relief from sore or fatigued muscles while still trucking along…
For instance, at times I will tighten my seat back up against my back while paddling. This allows me to remain upright, but also rest on the seat back a bit. This relieves my lower back muscles tremendously. My torso movement becomes only slightly limited in the stroke and my paddling suffers a tad, but I have yet to be paddling and needed 100% efficiency for the entire 3-5 hours I’m out on the lake/river. This does not cause bad posture. Quite the contrary, it supports proper posture just like a good ergonomic office chair would. It helps prevent slouching and leaning too far forward or back because the seat allows me to rest into it and force me into an upright position when I am fatigued. When I want to paddle more efficiently and clear some water faster, I simply release the chord a bit and my seat back drops back by 1/2 inch or so and now my torso is free to move completely.
I tend to paddle with the seat back moderately snug for the majority of my paddle trips since I am out simply exploring and enjoying the water. If I were on a fast moving river and maybe rapids, I would not want this. I would want more freedom of motion, so I wouldn’t do this. However, I also wouldn’t be paddling with that amount of efficiency for 5 hours. It would be relatively short in comparison.
In short, there is no way you can compare one outfitting to others. Touring kayaks aren’t making more adjustable seats due to marketing trends… They’re doing it because it makes sense for that application. Sure, an idiot can come along and use that seat completely wrong and end up in bad posture. It’s not 100% fool proof and neither is a low back seat. However, for the typical paddling style of a touring boat, those seats make way more sense than a white water type seat.
I have yet to need to roll…
I paddle lakes and slow moving rivers. Why would I need to roll? I’m also not obese. I’m 5’9, 160 lbs. I also have a shoulder injury that I’ve had surgery on and rolling can and has caused shoulder dislocations even when doing it under supervision and in good form.
Most people that kayak are not sea kayaking or white water kayaking. They’re on lakes and calm rivers mostly… Not everyones needs fit into your ideals. Sorry…
It sucks too be you.
Sorry. What a prick.
seats
But the boat’s made for full-day paddling, day after day on expeditions DON’T have more adjustable seats in most cases. They have simple rigid seats and a foam backrest or back band.
The boats being sold with higher seat backs and six different adjustments tend to be the mid-range transitional boats. These boats are aimed towards folks that are likely shopping more for features than a particular hull shape or top performance in a certain type of water conditions. In those boats, a fancy seat makes the boat stand out more, and yes, the cushy seat sells the boat, IMO.
For me, lumbar support doesn’t make my back more comfortable, whether it’s an office chair or a kayak seat. My back is less fatigued when I keep my pelvis rolled forward, and my low back in column, and that is better done by habit, in my case, than by something tightened up against my back. Your mileage may vary.
Your statement defines the diff
It’s like bike seats, as I said below. There is no one size fits all in terms of kayak seating arrangements. The best you get is one size fits a lot. And if you look inside the cockpit of a lot of sea kayaks that get taken out for more aggressive paddling, you’ll see even that is managed by customizing with minicell foam.
I am a little bemused by any comparison to WW boats because the boat height of my little Inazone doesn’t make it quite to the top of my hip bone. Comparisons from touring to WW boats are mostly on point for the deeper creekers and crossovers, and maybe boats for big guys.
But I think your statement above defines the debate well - you say “My torso movement becomes only slightly limited in the stroke and my paddling suffers a tad, but I have yet to be paddling and needed 100% efficiency for the entire 3-5 hours I’m out on the lake/river.”
I know paddlers who are unwilling to sacrifice any efficiency, and whose backs do better with almost no support and reliance on core muscles. For those folks the higher seat backs, no matter how ergonomic, do get in the way. For others, the combination of their paddling goals and fitness means they prefer more of an ability to slip back at times.
I have personally found that I have to mess with seats to get them to be right, doing things that are exactly the opposite of what is recommended by most. I like my seats harder and flatter than most, and found that the most ergonomic of my seats was a guaranteed backache after 2.5 hours. I made it less supportive and was immediately able to be comfortable all day in the boat. So I don’t feel that a lot of the ergonomic stuff is likely to be effective for all paddlers.