NSI Anatomic Backband?
You might want to consider an NSI anatomic backband. I had one in a Hurrricane Tracer I had for a while and I liked it. Reviews are on p-net at http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=910
David
a free idea that works
situps.
There is no seat in the world that can make eight hours of sitting inside a kayak comfortable if you don’t have fitness and good posture.
What do you mean by “tall”?
I set my seat back so the lumbar pad hits the lumbar area of my back. I can easily rotate my torso as far as it can turn naturally.
If it’s taller than your pelvis…
…it’s too tall.
Torso rotation
– Last Updated: Apr-08-11 7:28 AM EST –
Something that can be unclear in these discussions - full torso rotation is meant to be rotation from the hips up by most of the coaches I've dealt with these days, thus includes rotating the low back. Some say rotation but only mean from a bit above the waist thru the shoulders. That's why pedaling is somewhat necessary for full rotation.
So something that is hitting the low back well, no matter how ergonomically, is likely to be a problem for anyone with really good rotation.
Also, most I know who really work on their stroke have added limbering exercises in to increase their range of rotation over what they had when they started paddling, and have to work on their rotation each spring after a winter of snow shoveling etc. So they are working on increasing what they would have otherwise.
Parallel to Bike Seats
There is a comment above that at the price of a good kayak, the seat should come set up to handle all takers well. I’m not sure that’s true.
There is lots of conversation around what constitutes a good bike seat, and a huge divergence of opinion and practice. The real estate being considered is less than that of a kayak seat, but you hit similar issues. There are adherents of seats with high levels of cushioning, with holes cut into them and of traditional hard seats with no special accommodation. You’ll see all of these on the road.
The way that bike manufacturers handle it is by making the seat a separate component in all bikes, and taking a default seat out of the pricing of a higher end bike. The seat, like the foot pedals or clips, is a separate decision that is a cost above the frame, chain wheels and derailleur assembly. (In highest end bikes all of this is separate.) Where a seat is included in the set, most people selling bikes assume they’ll be swapping out a fair number of them.
This means that traditionalists like myself can choose the old fashioned solid hard seat, and others can as easily get highly padded frameworks with holes like the old cavalry saddles. It handles the reality that one size will not fit all.
I believe that at least one kayak manufacturer - a Brit one maybe? - has offered their kayaks with or without a hung seat. The without option is for those who would rather custom cut something like a foam seat for themselves.
IMO, in this respect the bike folks are being more realistic in their expectations than many kayak manufacturers.
Good point
One problem with the current setup of kayak seats is that although you might be able to find another seat you find more comfortable, it can take a lot of sawing, filing, reshaping, etc. to install a new seat. Ideally, I think a seat should be easy to remove without causing any damage to the hull. Rails in the bottom (for sliding seats) are a pain. When you remove things like that you may lower the resale value of the kayak.
Re bike seats, manufacturers have put quite a bit of research into studying the anatomy of the human form, different biking positions and purposes, and ergonomic seat design. Some kayak manufacturers seem to be avoiding that research. That’s shortsighted because, as on a bike, a kayak seat is the major point of contact.
maybe
You just hurt your back. I paddled all winter but this spring when I got back at it hard my back was killing me. No seat is going to solve a sore back unless the seat is doing the hurting. And I think you would know in the first five minutes. Ask a doctor or just take some advil for a week and see if that helps.
Ryan L.
Nail on the head
I think you explained this very well. As a person very into fitness and Kinesiology, I think you are correct.
Anyone that thinks it’s good or OK to paddle around for 8 hours without lumbar support or even giving the muscles a rest, is asking for long term issues such as arthritis and muscle strain. The human body is not made for continuous load. This is coming from a man that can deadlift 400 lbs and has a VERY strong back in comparison to most people. Not trying to brag, just simply showing that even people with very strong back get fatigue and have the potential to cause damage if doing something incorrectly.
The way seats are being made in kayaks today are definitely a step in the right direction. Having a higher back on a kayaking seat does not enable poor posture… that simply makes no logical sense. There are different seats being made for different paddling styles.
When you look at the Liquid Logic “BadAss” outfitting, it is designed with a lower back mainly for whitewater kayaking. Having it lower definitely allows you to paddle more efficiently in those conditions, perform rolls, apply a sprayskirt, etc… That outfitting is extremely comfortable, but not for hours of paddling. Taking it down some rapids and then porting it to another spot is more like it. Paddling in a seat like that for long hours is more likely to promote bad posture than a high seat. Why? Because of muscle fatigue. Your body will start to slouch whether you think your back is made of steel and you’re an “experienced” paddler or not.
Touring kayaks and transitional kayaks have many adjustments to allow comfortable travel for long periods of time. Sure, they’re not ideal for hitting rapids in some cases, but they are ideal for long paddling sessions (3-5 hours uninterrupted). Depending on how tall you are depends on how high up you’d want the seat back. Also, leaning back on an appropriately adjusted seat back and paddling isn’t necessarily “bad”. Sure, you may not get the most efficient stroke but sometimes people aren’t looking for the most efficient stroke when this happens. They’re generally looking for relief from sore or fatigued muscles while still trucking along…
For instance, at times I will tighten my seat back up against my back while paddling. This allows me to remain upright, but also rest on the seat back a bit. This relieves my lower back muscles tremendously. My torso movement becomes only slightly limited in the stroke and my paddling suffers a tad, but I have yet to be paddling and needed 100% efficiency for the entire 3-5 hours I’m out on the lake/river. This does not cause bad posture. Quite the contrary, it supports proper posture just like a good ergonomic office chair would. It helps prevent slouching and leaning too far forward or back because the seat allows me to rest into it and force me into an upright position when I am fatigued. When I want to paddle more efficiently and clear some water faster, I simply release the chord a bit and my seat back drops back by 1/2 inch or so and now my torso is free to move completely.
I tend to paddle with the seat back moderately snug for the majority of my paddle trips since I am out simply exploring and enjoying the water. If I were on a fast moving river and maybe rapids, I would not want this. I would want more freedom of motion, so I wouldn’t do this. However, I also wouldn’t be paddling with that amount of efficiency for 5 hours. It would be relatively short in comparison.
In short, there is no way you can compare one outfitting to others. Touring kayaks aren’t making more adjustable seats due to marketing trends… They’re doing it because it makes sense for that application. Sure, an idiot can come along and use that seat completely wrong and end up in bad posture. It’s not 100% fool proof and neither is a low back seat. However, for the typical paddling style of a touring boat, those seats make way more sense than a white water type seat.
I have yet to need to roll…
I paddle lakes and slow moving rivers. Why would I need to roll? I’m also not obese. I’m 5’9, 160 lbs. I also have a shoulder injury that I’ve had surgery on and rolling can and has caused shoulder dislocations even when doing it under supervision and in good form.
Most people that kayak are not sea kayaking or white water kayaking. They’re on lakes and calm rivers mostly… Not everyones needs fit into your ideals. Sorry…
It sucks too be you.
Sorry. What a prick.
seats
But the boat’s made for full-day paddling, day after day on expeditions DON’T have more adjustable seats in most cases. They have simple rigid seats and a foam backrest or back band.
The boats being sold with higher seat backs and six different adjustments tend to be the mid-range transitional boats. These boats are aimed towards folks that are likely shopping more for features than a particular hull shape or top performance in a certain type of water conditions. In those boats, a fancy seat makes the boat stand out more, and yes, the cushy seat sells the boat, IMO.
For me, lumbar support doesn’t make my back more comfortable, whether it’s an office chair or a kayak seat. My back is less fatigued when I keep my pelvis rolled forward, and my low back in column, and that is better done by habit, in my case, than by something tightened up against my back. Your mileage may vary.
Your statement defines the diff
It’s like bike seats, as I said below. There is no one size fits all in terms of kayak seating arrangements. The best you get is one size fits a lot. And if you look inside the cockpit of a lot of sea kayaks that get taken out for more aggressive paddling, you’ll see even that is managed by customizing with minicell foam.
I am a little bemused by any comparison to WW boats because the boat height of my little Inazone doesn’t make it quite to the top of my hip bone. Comparisons from touring to WW boats are mostly on point for the deeper creekers and crossovers, and maybe boats for big guys.
But I think your statement above defines the debate well - you say “My torso movement becomes only slightly limited in the stroke and my paddling suffers a tad, but I have yet to be paddling and needed 100% efficiency for the entire 3-5 hours I’m out on the lake/river.”
I know paddlers who are unwilling to sacrifice any efficiency, and whose backs do better with almost no support and reliance on core muscles. For those folks the higher seat backs, no matter how ergonomic, do get in the way. For others, the combination of their paddling goals and fitness means they prefer more of an ability to slip back at times.
I have personally found that I have to mess with seats to get them to be right, doing things that are exactly the opposite of what is recommended by most. I like my seats harder and flatter than most, and found that the most ergonomic of my seats was a guaranteed backache after 2.5 hours. I made it less supportive and was immediately able to be comfortable all day in the boat. So I don’t feel that a lot of the ergonomic stuff is likely to be effective for all paddlers.
Seat
Maybe I was a little too specific in my last post… I feel it’s up to the paddlers preference.
If you want full range of motion, you simply don’t have to have the seat pulled up close to you. Problem solved. However, the difference here is you can decide if you want to use the seat for support vs. being forced into one way or another. Nobody is saying you have to adjust a highly adjustable seat the way I said I enjoy mine to be adjusted to.
The power of adjustable seats allows you to fit the seat to your liking. If you’re a lazy paddler that is just out for a stroll, or someone that wants to dig deep and clear some water.
I think what the key point here is, that nobody is exactly the same. Everyone has different preferences or needs for their paddling style. Adjustable seats provide this.
I’ve paddled a boat with the BadAss outfitting in it and I absolutely loved that outfitting. Very comfy, but not nearly as adjustable as my Tsunami’s Phase 3 seating. I personally feel as if I would have paddled any longer than I did in the Liquid Logic boat, that I would have started to get fatigued and bad posture would set in. In my Tsunami, however, if and when that happens, a few adjustments and I can still paddle with relatively good efficiency but also relax areas of my body that need a rest. That was not possible with the BadAss outfitting, at least not to this extent.
Also, I will note, I did not feel as if my paddling suffered in the least from boat to boat. When I adjusted the seat back in the Tsunami and allowed full range of motion for the paddle, I felt just as efficient as I did in the Liquid Logic boat. I know this is not a 100% fair comparison considering they’re two different types of boats, but it’s the closest I could come to with seat comparisons.
For my purposes of long days and travel, the Phase 3 seating is exactly what I want for a long paddle. For whitewater purposes, I would absolutely want something similar to BadAss outfitting for my trip. I do not in any way feel as if the Phase 3 seating would benefit me there.
Umm…
It sucks to be me because I don’t do what you do? Ok…
At last, a Voice of Reason
The same arguments are repeated over and over, year after year, and no consensus is ever reached on the best seat for a kayak. That simply means that there is a wide variety of kayaking styles, people’s anatomy, ages and fitness levels, personal preference, etc.
What works for one person has no bearing on what works for someone else. Why not just let people come to their own conclusions and discover what works for them? It serves no purpose to rate one style of kayaking as superior to another. Two kayakers may have absolutely nothing in common with respect to the above variables. It makes no sense to try to figure out which seat would suit both of them. It doesn’t bother me in the least if someone wants to paddle sitting on a two by four with no back support at all.
Perhaps with more research some commonalities will be found, as happened with bicycle seats (e.g., the need for crotch relief). I suspect that two of those commonalities will be the need for lumbar and thigh support. For the moment I can’t prove my belief, so I will let it be and just keep on paddling.
Sorry, I misspoke
The quote was, “85% of all SEA kayakers will never need to roll a kayak.”
Broader
– Last Updated: Apr-14-11 8:31 AM EST –
Well, I guess I'll always be the one that always messes up the universal. Part of tilting down and filling in the cups in the seat that was giving me trouble was to remove its attempt to support my thigh. The bit that started running under my thigh was specifically where the pain was starting. Then it ran up my hips, etc. (and there is nothing there in the other boat, a very short seat that has never been an issue). And in bikes, as I said I am best with a traditional mildly padded seat that offers no additional support for any anatomical part. Tried the other - back hurt pretty quick.
So if we are talking about different adaptations to make it work for everyone, it needs to be really different. Not just variation on certain parts of it.
Hey Deanproxy…
your fighting a losing battle if you say anything derogatory against rolling here on P-net.
They’ll jump all over you.
But I do take exception to reading between the lines that you think that sea kayakers need to roll.
I just got back from 760 miles of “sea kayaking” in the Atlantic and the Gulf and have no desire to do a roll.
I have on occasion been in some waters that would make some “sea kayakers” cringe, and thought that if they capsized, they would have to be rolling all day to keep their boat up right, yet I have never capsized or thought that I would. It could happen some day, but it hasn’t in the past ten years.
If I was playing around in rock gardens and surf, I would definately want to practice rolling on a continual basis.
Oh, I almost forgot, I am also, 5’-9" and 150 pounds. and I also have a bad rotator cuff.
I also know a hard core BCU rated paddler that refused to quit rolling after rotator cuff surgury and now is slowly going cripple because he won’t give it up.
So, for what it is worth, you have one ally here, who won’t stoop to name calling the other side as some of them seem to enjoy if you don’t agree with them.
Jack L
Thanks!
Thanks Jack! 
I make no assumptions that anyone needs to roll. I’d just see it as more of a thing to do when you’re in rougher conditions than a calm river or lake where you can just easily swim to shore, empty your boat from water and hop back in and go on. Or even, just simply do a quick wet exit and self rescue. If the water is completely calm, this makes way more sense than rolling does - to me anyway.
I value my shoulder far too much and that surgery was super expensive. I have been informed by my surgeon that I am capable of doing rolls and “bracing” and such, but I do have a higher chance of my shoulder coming out of socket than someone that has never had the issue. My physical therapist just said “Why even do it if you don’t have to. Don’t risk it.” I’m taking that advice.
I have nothing to prove to anyone with rolling. I can see how it will save someones life in some high class rapids, but it’s just dumb on a lake.