rolling
Learning to roll for lake kayaking is like a roofer wearing a parachute. I guess you could but it doesn’t really help.
Ryan L.
You have small lakes
– Last Updated: Apr-14-11 4:29 PM EST –
We have lakes that go 10 miles north to south, and up to 30. The fetch can be tremendous, plenty to make a re-entry and roll the best way to self-rescue the only reliable way to get back in solo if you get out of the boat. And making a roll even better so you don't.
its still a lake
Unless it is a lake you can’t see across your not going to get breakers capsizing your boat. Everybody take a breath. If you can’t see across just paddle next to shore. You will survive with out mastering the roll. A go to reentry is so much more usefully. I can count on my no finger hands all the times I’ve capsized. And I have paddled many lakes in horrible conditions. In fact, I would have to intentionally flip myself periodically just to stay comfortable with the roll even if I learned. And the skirt I paddle with probably wouldn’t even allow it. And during the summer I don’t even wear a skirt, so what then? Soooo… what’s the point. Maybe everybody is just trying to justify all the time and money they have spent learning to roll. Oh lord this isn’t going to go over well.
Ryan L.
You are wrong
– Last Updated: Apr-15-11 10:02 AM EST –
We regularly have people capsizing in lakes you can see across each season up here. They have long fetch top to bottom that can turn up to 3 ft waves and/or boat wakes around some points. Lake George, Lake Champlain, and this with people in quite apt boats with decent seat time. Lake Champlain tends to score one at least one capsize per group for many groups. And we or friends have been on Lake George and found ourselves putting someone back into their boat. In many of these cases the conditions are such that a paddle float rescue is not an option, and swimming to shore would be a suicide mission because of cold, distance and boat traffic.
We have a nothing little pond that has toppled paddlers from the occasional microburst, and not even that at times. A father and his kids ended up in the water one cold day and wouldn't have made it if not for other people who were out and a good rescue squad. They were newbies, but they were also in boats that many of us couldn't capsize if we tried.
AS to the seeing across part - on a clear day you can see the shores of CT from the north shore of LI, a 20 mile distance. In Maine on many summer days, haze and all, we can see islands that are a good four miles away. Your proposition suggests that a roll is not useful for those areas as well.
It is great that you haven't capsized much. I had a zero capsize rate myself, and in some nasty conditions, until I started pushing my skills and purposely getting into stuff that was a little over my head. I also happen to have operated with a huge advantage - I am a smaller person, had very secure sea kayaks that weren't easy to capsize and have quite good balance. But there are enough capsizes on our lakes each year to show that is not everyone's experience. Recommending that people not try to learn a useful skill because you don't think you need it is at least unwise.
Yes, there certainly are lakes and paddling patterns (only in warm weather etc) where a roll is not needed. And there are lots of such paddlers out there. But saying it is not a useful skill anywhere you can see the opposite shore is plain silly.
It also diminishes the value of at least trying to learn a roll. Even someone who hasn't gotten a roll often walks away with a great deal less anxiety about capsizing, helpful in avoiding one by staying loose, and gets enough to be able to come up by putting a paddle float on their blade and doing a wet re-entry and roll. That is still a better recovery in many situations than the alternatives.
It’s still based on air
Obviously I don’t have any more proof that the guy was wrong than he has showing he is right. But I did surveys and crunched these kinds of numbers for my job at times, even got sent to further training on top of an appropriate degree. There is nothing reliable under any of these statements about how many kayakers (of any type) can/need/might occasionally like to use a roll. People are just flinging them around for whatever purpose, not infrequently to help sell a certain level of boat.
Personally, being able to easily cool off on a hot day comes up as a pretty nice advantage regardless of any safety arguments.
Agree
– Last Updated: Apr-15-11 3:24 PM EST –
The funnel effect on a narrow lake can create ocean-like conditions for sure. I mean a lake that has a "waist" in the middle. Or any long narrow lake, for that matter. I heard about eight-foot waves on Aziscohos in western Maine, which you can easily see across, and saw conditions there that turned back large pontoon boats just 100' from shore.
i promise
If I am standing on shore and I see eight ft waves ill be back in the truck.
I guess you guys can live in your world of paranoia and anecdotal catastrophes and ill just paddle safely with my amazing ability to stay upright on a lake.
Ryan L.
Hyperbole helps
– Last Updated: Apr-15-11 6:28 PM EST –
No one said anything about you being amazing. But I suppose if you have amazing skills you may as well claim them.
so
Do I have put quotes around amazing for the sarcasm to come through.
Or I do… NM
Funny
Seriously. I literally laughed.
It’s funny cause it’s true…
Your friend has a technique problem
Rolling should not stress the shoulders; if it does, you’re doing something wrong. Rolling is also considerably less strenuous than a re-entry, both on your body and your gear. Re-entries in rough water are very strenuous and have a high likelihood of failure and/or injury, particularly with assisted rescues where you have two boats banging against one-another while you’re trying to clamber in. It puts both paddlers at risk, as I’ve learned the hard way.
Wet exit and re-entry should be a LAST RESORT, not one’s only plan in the event of a capsize. Being able to roll negates all the above issues. As with wearing a PFD and other standard safety practices, learning to roll is just common sense for kayakers.
I have never heard anyone who can roll say “gee, what a waste of time” or “I wish I hadn’t learned that”. OTOH, I know a lot of paddlers who have remarked at how much being able to roll improved their paddling overall (I’ve seen the difference, too), as it enabled them to explore the performance envelope of their boats to a degree they couldn’t do prior to learning to roll. Rolling is a “gateway” skill that allows one to push the limits of bracing and paddle strokes without the worry/hassle that every minor mistake is going to require a laborious re-entry. That make learning new skills fun, rather than a chore.
No, rolling isn’t mandatory, but by not learning to roll, paddlers are really cheating themselves out of learning other skills that make paddling more fun and safer, too. It’s every paddler’s choice whether to learn to roll or not, but you don’t realize how much you’re missing by not even trying.
You missed the point, Celia
How can people justify not doing something that’s obviously a good idea unless they have some made-up statistics that “prove” their contention? 
He could just as easily have said that 85% of paddlers will never be saved from drowning by their PFDs or that 85% of drivers will never need their seatbelts in a accident. So what?
Statistics - funny story
– Last Updated: Apr-18-11 11:03 AM EST –
My fave on the value of statistics... a couple plus decades ago someone I knew was running the re-election campaign for city mayor. They had statistics up the whatever that showed the incumbent had huge ratings in terms of name and overall recognition, so they went to bed that night figuring he had it locked.
They woke up the next morning to a sweep by the opposing party of the Mayor slot as well as all of the City Council positions. Most of the Council incumbents had also polled with very healthy numbers on name recognition.
The problem was, they only asked if people recognized the Mayor. They never asked if people LIKED the Mayor. By the next morning it was pretty clear that they didn't, and the guy would have had a better chance if no one was sure what name to vote against.
Granted it wasn't so funny for the guy I knew or the Mayor. But it was a great lesson in statistics.
Judging the size of waves
Judging the size of waves from shore can be tough. It often looks calmer than it is. Wind and waves can also pick up unexpectedly fast.
Did anyone bring popcorn??
I used to get terrible back pain
I couldn’t paddle more than a few minutes before intense pain in my lower back. I tried a few boats… same results. I saw my chiropractor. He said it might be a bulged disc and I might not be able to paddle anymore. All the boats I had been paddling were Necky. Once I tried another brand, there was no pain at all. I’ve never had problems with any other brand, but to this day can’t sit in a Necky for more than 5 minutes.
A friend who’s a former kayak guide had the same issue with Necky seats. Never figured out what it is about the seat, but it goes to show different style seats suit different paddlers.
Before raising the seat anymore, try using an inflatable thermarest on the seat. As you paddle you can release air gradually and dial in the right height for you. The higher the seat, the lower the stability.
The angle of the seat may also be an issue.
I agree with another poster that thigh braces may help immensely. At worst they’ll give you more control of the kayak and be more comfortable on your knees, without helping your back.
No kayak seat will give you lumbar support. Just being higher doesn’t lead to more lumbar support.
If you need to lean back on your seat, it’s a sign your core isn’t strong enough to support you. Specifically the transverse abdominal and oblique abdominal muscles need strengthening.
Both leaning back and slouching forward increase strain on the spine, so strengthening core muscles improves many types of back pain.
So… paddling with good techinique is actually good for the back. Poor paddling posture leads to an inefficient stroke.
Hope some of these suggestions help!
Rolling is Not Dumb
It may not be a good idea for you with your shoulder. I highly encourage you and everyone to respect your body and its’ limitations. If rolling isn’t appropriate for you, then don’t roll.
However there’s no need to dismiss rolling as dumb to justify your choice. The term ‘lake’ is a bit vague, since the size of lakes vary dramatically. Here we have long lakes in valleys coming down from mountain ranges. Cold wind can howl down from mountain passes creating treacherous conditions.
On the other hand, if I was paddling a small sheltered lake, I’d spend most of my time rolling, since I’d probably find it the most fun.
Putting aside all the safety issues, rolling can be just plain fun. There’s nothing dumb about having fun
Dislocating Shoulder While Paddling
With your shoulder, be aware that most kayaking shoulder dislocations are from uncontrolled capsizes. The paddler uses their paddle to try and catch themselves and throws it too for out or behind them, and the stress it puts on their shoulder in that weak, extended position pops it out.
Good luck with your shoulder!
btw, I’m not sure what the connection is between being obese and needing to learn to roll.
btw 2, I doubt you’ve rolled with good form. Otherwise you’d know how to roll and wouldn’t be having this discussion. I’m not trying to insult you, it’s just the way we learn everything. At first we’re sloppy and inefficient, and as we do it more, we refine our technique.
Time and Money Spent Learning to Roll
Personally I haven’t even paid for a rolling lesson. I took a free clinic at a paddlefest, got books and videos from the library, and had other paddlers help me to learn. The only $ I spent was the drop-in fee at the local pool sessions.
Yes, I’ve put quite a bit of time into learning to roll. The weekly pool sessions became my favorite time of the week which I always looked forward to. I initially learned to roll as a safety skill. Now I’m excited to learn different styles of rolls just for the joy of rolling.
No axe to grind here about wasted time or $$.