Yesterday I went out with Kokatat Expedition dry suit with hood, kokatat balaclava & Kokatat hat. Head was perfectly comfortable. Under dry suit I had Kokatat Wool core long sleeve, Kokatat polartec liner (bunny suit), and Kokatat polar core liner thick shirt not sure (labeled Polar core XL size). Was not freezing but shoulders were a bit on the cold side. It would have been worse but wind was 8-10 mph 34-36*. Got home when sun was way gone and it was cloudy all day. What should I buy to help? I was thinking XXL https://kokatat.com/product/polartec-power-dry-basecore-long-sleeve-shirt-inublsdis this may be what I was wearing already (labeled power core) as I mentioned above not sure. I know I will be out in windier days with same temps. I usually get home before dark in winter and stay with 30* F and winds could be 20 knots plus. May go out if colder and winds are below 10 knots. Thanks hope the above made sense.
I have an Immersion Research light grey Thick Skin and wear it as a standalone snowshoeing as it’s way too warm under my drysuit. It’s a close fitting garment. I would do some searching about or contact IR to see if an XXL IR Polar Skin can be found. It’s thinner in the tunnel and forearm area but higher loft in the rib cage, back and upper arms.
See you on the water,
Marshall
The Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
fb.me/theriverconnection
thanks
Does your dry suit “wet out”? When new, dry suits will have water bead on them. But over time (a short amount of time at that), they lose the DWR (durable water repellent) and the water will make the outside of the dry suit wet. When it wets out, I find there is a much higher amount of evaporative cooling in breezes, and it would show up in areas exposed to wind (like your shoulders). If yours was wet and wetting out, then adding more DWR to the shoulder area may help this.
Beyond that, I am not good at providing advice on this. Being in California, we don’t get conditions like you describe…
no still beads up need to check socks on feet though better. thanks
This past October I had read praise about Mysterioso M-Tech coldwater clothing at a couple other sites and started a thread here asking about the brand. Response was all very positive so I purchased a pair of the pants. I was so impressed after wearing them once that I purchased the long sleeved shirt (which has a mock turtleneck) as well as their base layer socks. My last paddle was in 32F air temp, 10 mph wind, and snow. The Mysterioso shirt was my base layer followed by a Terramar layer and a fleece layer. Bottom layer was just the Mysterioso pants. All topped with my drysuit. I was toasty warm while paddling and while loading my boat. The M-Tech is soft, warm, and stretchy Polartec.
I had worn Mysterioso socks as a base layer followed by Merino wool socks that day, which was when I had the condensation on the wool socks. Yesterday I spent about two hours outdoors blowing snow and playing catch-up on some outdoor stuff that should have been done before all the snow hit, working in snow close to knee-high. As an experiment, I switched layers and wore my wool socks as the base layer and the Mysteriosos over them. As I was curious about the layer effect, wore cheap uninsulated rubber knee-high muck boots instead of my insulated Keens. My feet were cold, but not uncomfortably so. That surprised me. Next test will be in very cold water if I can get a break on weekend snowstorms.
It takes some experimentation to get the right amount of insulation for the conditions. I always wear a synthetic base layer. If the temps are above freezing I’ll usually just wear a fleece union suit. If it’s below freezing I’ll add thermal underwear (tops and bottoms). Wool socks under the booties, good pair of neoprene gloves and a hat or helmet liner and I’m good to go. When you are paddling it is pretty easy to overheat, so you need less insulation than you think, and a lot of people overdress. Trouble is, once you stop you will chill pretty quickly – especially if you have worked up a sweat. I try to keep the lunch breaks to a minimum on winter trips.
I don’t think there is a uniform “correct” answer. I used to paddle at near zero temps when the water was comparatively warm… 29 or so… ( the ocean rarely freezes due to wave action). Fleece Union suit, wool underwear, gloves, skull cap balaclava… goggles… no skin bare at all… Of course the dry suit and wool socks under the booties. I felted my own wool sox a la Newfoundlander boot sox.
Another wool blanket shirt on top of the union suit…
If there was no wind I would wear a lighter wool shirt…
There is a lot of trial and experimentation involved.
I wear enough so that when I sweat out I’m still warm. So overdressed and hot to start, until about 2o minutes in and I’m comfortable. Also makes sure that if I end up bobbing in the water for whatever reason, I have plenty of insulation.
@kayamedic said:
I don’t think there is a uniform “correct” answer. I used to paddle at near zero temps when the water was comparatively warm… 29 or so… ( the ocean rarely freezes due to wave action). Fleece Union suit, wool underwear, gloves, skull cap balaclava… goggles… no skin bare at all… Of course the dry suit and wool socks under the booties. I felted my own wool sox a la Newfoundlander boot sox.
Another wool blanket shirt on top of the union suit…If there was no wind I would wear a lighter wool shirt…
There is a lot of trial and experimentation involved.
Yep I always say it but I want to keep a record of temps and wind and what I wore and how it was. This week 20-25* if I can get out 13-24 mph winds. If bad I can stay in the canals to block some wind. I didn’t get out the entire summer due to work. Boston Whaler didn’t even hit the water. Winter is nice no bugs, rarely a boat, clearer water, and no sweating. I’ll add one more fleece shirt and see what happens.
@Johnysmoke said:
So overdressed and hot to start, until about 2o minutes in and I’m comfortable.
I do the opposite - I’ll start off a little cool, but after 20 minutes of paddling I’m fine. I’m a river paddler, so I’m unlikely to be in the water very long.
Do you all do a swim test of your gear before leaving the shore? I’ll fess up and admit I didn’t the last two times I paddled. I will the next time, presuming the $#%&*! winds/snows will take a break and I can get to water that’s not frozen.
What do you do if you’re all zipped and buckled up, do a swim test and discover you need another layer? Obviously you’ve got to take off your drysuit to add whatever you need. Do you do that outdoors in the cold air? Find someplace warm?
Thinking about this, it seems logical to do a swim test before unloading your boat, paddles, etc.
I’ve got a new Kokatat Surge semi-dry paddling suit on the way, so I’m watching this thread with interest. I tend to be kind of hot & prefer being a touch cool when I paddle. But when I get chilled, I really feel it. Especially my feet. I have a pair of knee high mid weight seal skin socks. Would those be total over kill inside a dry suit bootie? Would a mid weight Smartwool with a wicking layer be better?
I’m pondering how to layer in the summer when paddling cold water like Yellowstone Lake. I hate being overly hot. Last summer it snowed on me at Yellowstone in July, so you never know. I guess that’s the beauty of a dry suit, you can vary your layers to suit the conditions.
@Raftergirl
Don’t know the answers to your questions, but I do know that I needed a larger pair of paddling shoes to stuff my socked feet and drysuit booties into my shoes.
In retrospect, I must have had subconscious thoughts about a drysuit as I purchased the larger shoes months before even inquiring about a drysuit. Sometimes I do things quite out of logical order.
My water shoes are slightly larger already because I always wear some sort of sock with them. Thin fin socks in the summer when it’s hot, and either neoprene or the Seal Skinz when it’s colder. I have never found a river sandal or shoe that didn’t rub blisters on my feet, so the socks are a must. I LOVE the fin socks for when it’s hot. Light weight neoprene made my feet unbearably hot during summer rafting trips. I saw these super light fin socks on the ACK website and they have been a godsend. They are designed to be wore with swim fins to prevent blisters & chafing. They add just a touch of warmth, but also breath a little, and they rinse out & dry very quickly. No blister & no hot stinky feet from neoprene.
@Rookie said:
Do you all do a swim test of your gear before leaving the shore? I’ll fess up and admit I didn’t the last two times I paddled. I will the next time, presuming the $#%&*! winds/snows will take a break and I can get to water that’s not frozen.What do you do if you’re all zipped and buckled up, do a swim test and discover you need another layer? Obviously you’ve got to take off your drysuit to add whatever you need. Do you do that outdoors in the cold air? Find someplace warm?
Thinking about this, it seems logical to do a swim test before unloading your boat, paddles, etc.
I have some experience now picking layers. For me I think I’ll add one more Polartec shirt on real cold days below 30 and windy. I would have to jump off my dock to swim 90% of the time.
@Rookie said:
Do you all do a swim test of your gear before leaving the shore? I’ll fess up and admit I didn’t the last two times I paddled.
I did a few initial tests in the water when I first started winter paddling. Now I usually try to stay dry from the knees up throughout the paddle. At the end I very often do a swim and a few re-entries before loading up. This way you know how it will feel when you’re already chilled, or soaked with sweat (worse) and roasting.
Apply whatever safety considerations you feel appropriate.
@Rookie said:
Do you all do a swim test of your gear before leaving the shore?
Nope - all of my swim tests are unplanned, but they are fairly frequent. 
The amount off insulation that your wear is more art than science. If you swim, you obviously need enough insulation to get to shore or back in the boat without hyperthermia setting in. But dressing only for the water means that you will be really warm when you are upright in the boat, which is 99.9% of the time. Like I said above, I’m a river paddler, so I’m not likely to be in the water long and can go a little lighter on the insulation. Sea kayakers and lake paddlers who are far from shore probably need more. My kayak friends cool off with a roll when they overheat - not an option for me.
@Rookie said:
Do you all do a swim test of your gear before leaving the shore? I’ll fess up and admit I didn’t the last two times I paddled. I will the next time, presuming the $#%&*! winds/snows will take a break and I can get to water that’s not frozen.
No. But I have been paddling long enough and swum enough that I know what level of layers to wear reasonably well. Then again, my air and water temps don’t have as wide swings as others do.
What do you do if you’re all zipped and buckled up, do a swim test and discover you need another layer? Obviously you’ve got to take off your drysuit to add whatever you need. Do you do that outdoors in the cold air? Find someplace warm?
If you need to change layers, then you need to change layers. If the wind isn’t too bad, stripping down right outside is usually fine. Buy YMMV.
Thanks. When I asked the question about adding more layers, I guess I was thinking about my winter environment. The Great Lakes weather has been quite ungracious this week.
I think if I needed to add layers in really cold weather I’d find somewhere indoors as zippers need to be unzipped and rezipped and gloves have to come off to do that. Maybe my car with the heater running full blast.
Adding layers might not be as big an issue as deck ice and other cautions raised in Bryan Hansel’s winter paddling article. http://www.paddlinglight.com/articles/kayaks/winter-kayaking/