Is dipping your hand in the water on foreward strokes poor form?

Advice
#81

A couple of points that might be obvious but worth mentioning:

First, strength and conditioning make a huge difference in paddling style. You can do more if you’re stronger, period. I’d suggest that a highly fit paddler’s technique (someone who paddles several times a week) might be very different from a once- or twice-a-month paddler. And that’s fine.

Also, the farther you can get the blade in any direction (both farther forward and farther away from the boat) the more turning leverage you have, period. (Basic physics.) So your turning strokes will be more effective and have more power if…

  • you use a longer paddle
  • you reach farther in your strokes
  • or both of the above for maximum turning leverage
    (And yes, a longer paddle or reaching farther is harder and exerts more strain on your joints and arms, hence the conditioning part above.)

Scott

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#82

@Shadepine agree, but longer length doesn’t have to mean added stress on the joint. High angle techniques with large square inch blades, and paddling techniques where the paddler pushes, pulls and braces alternately on the foot pegs is far harder on joints than a smaller blade on a longer shaft. That’s especially true if power is applied gradually when using a longer shaft. If your paddle oscillates, cavitates or flutters, you’re simply overpowering the paddle. You’ll go faster, but you’ll also use energy that can’t be recovered. Any paddle slippage that doesn’t move the boat is wasted energy. It’s like flooring the accelerator in your car at a stoplight. You can spin your tires and watch the gas gauge drop, or use that energy more wisely.

Every boat design has a sweet spot. Go ahead and calculate hull speed, boat width, V-hull, soft chine, hard chine, fish for hull vs. Swede form, and factor in drag coefficients. None of it matters a witt if you don’t know how to paddle, try to copy a paddling style that doesn’t works for you, or if you use a paddle you aren’t comfortable with. Pushing a boat beyond the designed sweet spot uses proportionally more energy, and pushing a mere .3 mph past your aerobic threshold could reduce your travel distance from 25 mile to 5 miles.

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#83

Nobody is racing with a gp paddle. To bring in paddler fitness is apples to oranges.

#84

Not sure what that means

#85

I assume you’re talking about organized racing. Local amateur racers can use whatever kind of paddle they prefer, and I have to believe there are kayak races for people who use greenland paddles exclusively.

#86

YES indeed!
I have never really a needed a low brace 90 degrees beside me,
but have needed a low brace ~45 degrees behind me after a forward stroke in a breaking following wave.

The only sensible advise with braces is not to do them ‘behind’ your shoulder but rotate your upper body enough to avoid that.
This is especially important when making a high brace in a kayak, as I found out the hard way years ago :frowning:

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#87

I just found this page about 20 minutes ago, but it confirms all I suspected.
1999 I was training for Sea kayak world championship, I took a class for wing paddles, I had it and use it, but cannot really comfortable with it, I choose to use my Greenland paddle.

Most of the experts agreed the wing paddle was the fastest, but those that use GLs well also say the wings are not much faster, and for so many other uses the GL is actually as good and often better.
Near the bottom of the page is this quote:

1999 I was training for Sea kayak world championship, I took a class for wing paddles, I had it and use it, but cannot really comfortable with it, I choose to use my Greenland paddle.

For the world class 500m sprint I came #8 for the 32km #12 for 60km #7 I was pretty happy with the result, by the time my max speed was only 8,3 mph, I was the only one who use that stick.

2000 I went to Miami kayak challenge for 5 mile race, using Greenland paddle and Surfski

12 th place, 8th place, and 3rd place. Never won one of these 3 races because he was “only” going 8.3 MPH!!!

I came 1st their were several pro paddlers was there.

So I would just say, depends on skill level and experience and Greenland paddle is good for anything.

ONLY 8.3 MPH?? !!!
With a flat wood stick !!!

I think it’s far more about power and skill then equipment.

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#88

Very good article. As you’ve pointed out, there is no perfect tool. Each person has to experiment and adapt to find the right boat, the paddle that fits his or her needs, a technique to take advantage of individual physical characteristics, and practice to develop good form.

Paddles are cheap, good paddles are expensive, but they all work so it shouldn’t be hard to tweek until you have a fit. Surprisingly, many paddlers don’t take the opportunity to swap paddles with a partner. It doesn’t matter if the other person is using a paddle that has larger or smaller blades, a heavier weight, or different style. Rather that take an extra paddle, trade paddles when you’re with a partner. That’s the best way to experiment. While I prefer a 250 cm Kalliste (99.7 sq in), I’ve swapped for a 210 cm Werner Little Dipper (85 sq in), and made the best use of it by putting it through the drill to find the top speed and to see how much effort it required to maintain the average speed typical with my Kalliste. The Little Dipper feels similar to my Greenland, without needing to learn a new techique, but it’s too short - I know it’s too short because I have to bend and reach which adds stress and reduces paddling efficiency. Craig loaned me his GearLab Greenland and Werner 230 cm Ikelos (110 sq in). The GearLab is lighter but a near match to my hand made Greenland, and performance is nealy identical. The Ikelos surprised me. It felt like less resistance, but the larger surface area of the blade didn’t offer any speed advantage. The shorter length required a higher angle which cut into my cadence.

Reading various posts, I don’t get a sense that paddlers realize the relationship between paddle length, square inch blade area, and cadence.

Nobody can tell you what paddle is best for you. Both Craig and I can pace each other in identical boats, but he paddles high angle and I paddle low angle. He uses a shorter paddle, larger square inch feathered blades and slower cadence. My paddle is 8 inches longer, with smaller square inch zero feather angle blades butva higher cadence. His paddling form is impeccable, so I assume my paddling technique is at least efficient. We both haveva reasonably high rate ofvsoeed

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#89

I’d agree that it’s best to swap not just paddles as often as you can with friends, but also kayaks as much as you can.

My situation is a bit different then most other kayakers. Because of my location I started out with no one to paddle with and no other paddles or kayaks to try. But because I’d encourage others to go with me and just try my kayak I was able to become the one around here that started a groups of kayakers, and now I have bough and resold over 2 Dz kayaks and most are sit-inside types from 14 foot day-touring to 18.5 foot sea kayaks. With most of those used kayaks I got paddles (sometimes 2 or 3 with each boat) and nearly all of them were cheep “big-box store” paddles, but I did get a few higher-end ones too. In fact I just picked up 2 used kayaks and got 2 paddles with them, one a real heavy double bladed coal shovel and the other is a carbon Aqua-Bound. The Aqua Bound is a high end paddle but the blades are smaller than what I like and 210 CM long is shorter than what I like. Still it’s easy to use and smooth in the water. I think I’ll keep it and loan it to smaller paddlers who I go out with who may not be comfortable with my 8 foot long paddles that I have come to love.

One thought I have had, an idea I observed a bout 2 years ago: from having so many different paddles to try is that Square Inches of surface increasing has a practical limit as to any advantage it can give. Once a paddle is grabbing water to a point the blade pivots but doesn’t move back it’s giving all the “power” it can and the blade is the “anchor” holding it’s position in water but the SHAFT is the part that’s being used to move the kayak. So once it’s effectively stopped in water, going to a larger blade doesn’t ‘stop it more’.
So I have found (for me anyway) that once my paddle blades stops slipping backwards to a meaningful degree, making a faster cadence or a longer stroke is what moves the kayak more. I liken it to pulling a stuck truck out of a mud hold with a wench. If you anchor the cable to a tree 2 feet in diameter and pull out the truck with that wench, it pulls the truck out at a certain speed, but anchoring to a 3 foot tree doesn’t make the winch pull any faster. But if the power was available to rotate the drum’s axel 1 turn every second and it could do it with a 9" drum and also go the same speed with a 12" drum, the rotation of 12" takes in more cable then a 9 inch drum per second/revolution. That’s how paddle length works. The longer paddle makes a larger arc so covers more distance every stroke. The down-side is leverage. Many paddlers can’t swing a 100 Sq In Blade on an 8 foot paddle as well as they can an 85 Sq In blade on a 6.5 foot paddle.

So as the article said (and as I have come to know,) it’s more about skill and power of the paddler. A skilled small paddler who uses a small blade and a shorter length is faster then an unskilled paddler with about any paddle
The man I got my Chatham 17 from had a super light, small 100% carbon French Made paddle he got overseas and it seemed to be a table spoon to me when I tried it. But he took it back and paddled with me and left me behind very quickly. Why? Because he was good at it and I was not.

That was 4 years ago, and since then I’ve taken that memory with me and have tried to work on my technique. I don’t know how I am doing now because I have no experts to go with around me. What I do know is that I have had complements and comments as to my speed from 2 other kayakers who teach for a living. Trying to track my speeds now and then with a clock on a phone and a map, it’s very un-scientific, but I am a lot faster then I was 4 years ago and in gaining that speed I now feel like I am, using less, effort.

So John, when you went to the barrowed paddle with the larger blades and got no more speed, I think the reason is the larger blade is not anchoring any better then the 99.7 Sq in blade you are using now. It’s the 3 foot tree and you use the 2 foot tree now, but “slowing down the wench drum” because of an unfamiliar tool will slow it down, not speed it up. And if the speed of the strokes is the same and both blades anchor you effectively to the same degree, neither one is going to move the kayak faster.

Only buy more length or more Candance can you do that. Or a faster kayak like maybe a ski.

My guess anyway…

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#90

(Sorry, fat fingered send)

We both achieve a reasonable rate of speed, so the question is: which technique, blade size, feather angle, paddle length, technique is superior. My guess is that he can easily out sprint me, but I might edge out over distances. Watching him, what stands out is the efficiency in the stroke, clean splash free catch and it appears that the feathered blades result in an equally clean exit that doesn’t lift water.

When the question about improving speed surfaces on the forum, the prevailing answers come down to paddle harder, push pull twist, bigger blades, reach further and exit later, push on the foot pegs, nah na nah nah . . . Unfortunately, ALL those remedies use energy inefficiently by causing the blades to slip, oscillate, flutter and dump water. Watch the blade that’s out of the water to see if it looks like your chopping shaved steak on a hot griddle or stirring soup. Whatever paddle you’re using will give you feedback. Pushing it beyond it’s design is a waste of energy.

If a paddler complains of joint pain, the go-to answer is always try a Greenland. That works, but why not suggest going to a smaller square inch Euro, like the Little Dipper with 85 sq in blades. That would allow using a longer shaft, but the smaller blade area required a change by reducing your rate of acceleration to prevent slippage. A Greenland can reach the same speeds if you can increase the cadence to make up for the reduced blade area. However, there is a practical limit to peak cadence. The answer to that is to increase blade area for greater resistance, and increase paddle length to the point that you’re able to accurately control the track. How wide you place your hands is up to you. A rigid paddlers box reduces stress on joints.

Consider different paddle designs. Take a paddle with blades the size of snow shovels, and consider whether you’d prefer it with a short or long shaft. Would it be best used at a fast or slow cadence. Then consider a Greenland style paddle made from a 1x 2. How long should it be, what cadence . . . Figure it out.

If you change paddle styles, length, blade area, or blade design, you must modify your technique. Use any paddle you pick up. Use it until you find an objectionable feature that you want to correct. Do you find yourself reaching, or do you have problems controlling the track under power. You can use any paddle and get sound results, if you learn the paddle. Speed has less to do with power than efficiency. High power and muscling works, but it bleeds limited energy stores.

I agree with the article - a Wing for sprints, a Euro for general purpose, a Greenland for control. They all work, but nobody can tell you which is best for you. That’s up to you. Figure it out by analyzing the feedback from your paddle. Over the years, I’ve been able to overcome physically debilitating issues and age by improving my paddling technique and analyzing paddle feedback. Steve, you can solve the flutter issue by moderating your acceleration. Too much emphasis is placed on formulas, old adages, hull speed, hull width, wetted area, drag and other theoretical mumbo jumbo.

Based on our conversations, I’ve been able to induce flutter and oscillation at speeds as low as 4.8 mph. By experimenting with rate of acceleration, cadence, and stroke consistency, I’ve been able to hit speeds up to 5.9 and 6.0 mph in the 175 Tsunsmi without the paddle faltering or causing joint pain. You have to build speed gradually. By mimicking the Greenland cant you can mitigate the flutter, but that only channels water over the blade in a controlled direction. That will cause the shaftbto torquebin your hand, leading to grip fatigue. You’re intuitive, so sense what the paddle is signaling. Rather than trying to go faster, concentrate on paddling form. Paddler’s box, torso rotation, concentrate on a clean catch and follow through. A clean catch and follow through with the blade perpendicular to the water is most efficient.

Efficient follow-through leads to higher cadence. If you review my speed graphs, notice how they flatten as the season progresses. I’m not confident that the significance of that is recognized. It shows that my focus is on improving paddling form and technique. I compare it to gains in bicycling speeds by increasing cadence. The higher the cadence, the easier it is to increase speed, not only on flats, but also on climbs and decents. It isn’t about trying to go faster, it’s about concentrating on proper form, and only proper form will contribute to higher cadence.

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#91

You are correct about the lager blade of the ikelos. While a largre blade area offers greater resistance, there is always a slight amount of slippage. A proper test would be to compare over similar distances; however, I don’t like the difference of 8 inches between the Ikelos and the Kalliste. That neans I would have to find a 240 cm or 250 cm Ikelos, which is rare and would cost $500. The Kalliste works in 250 cm and 240 cm. I read the bunk about increased paddle arc from a longer paddle and conclude it’s just something repeated from a book. I tested the 240 cm and 250 cm alternaty and find no speed advantage. StarlingGirl pointed out the 240 cm is more controllable, but the 250 cm doesn’t diminish control enough to be measurable, while it does offer a wider grip option (I believe that enhances control and at the same time opens the chest to improve breathing).

As I said, don’t change your paddle unless you identify traits that you find objectionable. Speed differences in paddles are probably only measurable in tenths of a mph; however, the degree of comfort could be a more compelling argument to change.

When you change paddle length, I suggest you pay attention to how easy it is to control the power track. Critics can talk all they want about a longer, wider paddle arc being less efficient. How it impacts speed and stamina is the measure.

I’m not suggesting that everyone should adopt my suggestions, but I’m offering insight into a different approach.

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#92

Well, not suggesting that everyone should adopt your suggestions if fine, but trying them is never a bad thing. What I have learned in mostly from what I have tried myself. I have tried a few techniques suggested by several more knowledgeable paddlers and found all of them educational, but not all of them beneficial in every case.
I certainly have learned a few tip from you John so when you suggest something, I try it if I can. Not everything is adopted, but not trying it means it’s only theory to me. I like facts better. Once I try something I then know if it works well for me or not. So I am not put off by suggestions.

#93

some more reflections:
A higher stroke rate can lower the yaw of your boat and thus the resistance caused by yaw. (Yaw can add as much as 5% to the resistance of a boat when paddling forward according to John Winters.)
Problem is that without enough practice you lose precision with a higher stroke rate and that can lower your efficiency when paddling forward.
There are no shortcuts in that matter.

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#94

Of the boats I use, the 175 Tsunami yaws the most. This season is the first time I had the 175 out in several years for many reasons. The increased weight makes it harder to carry and load, it has to be store at a remote location, and unlike the other kayaks that can be carried in the bed of my truck, the 175 must be carried on a ladder rack.

The 145 tracks better and is much easier to control. If you follow my previous statements, you’ll realize that I’m not promoting one paddling technique over another. I’m simply offering an alternative. The effectiveness of any technique depends on execution. What I observe by watching other paddlers is the inconsistent execution. The most common practice is to reach, splash as they grab water, pull hard using biceps and shoulders, go on for a few stroke, stop to recover and repeat. Each stroke enters the water at a different cant which skews the boat and that requires corrective strokes. That works, but it takes a lot of effort. I know, because when I paddle with other kayakers, I eventually resort to paddling one stroke to every three to five stokes the other person takes.

Managing a high cadence depends on a lot of factors. It isn’t the only technique or necessarily the best technique for everyone. As I pointed out, Craig’s high angle stroke with a feathered paddle is about 50 to 60 strokes per minute. The key to his speed is efficiency with no wasted motion, fluidity, a clean splashless catch without lifting or flinging water at the exit. I’ve seen his GPS and heart rate charts, and can’t match his technique - he’s a sprinter. Yet I can hang with him by resorting to a low angle, high cadence stroke. My message to new paddlers is to experiment and focus on consistency; high effort isn’t necessary if you focus on efficiency.

What I find absurd is how I draw criticism because low angle technique causes the boat to yaw excessively. That tells me a critic doesn’t know how to execute a proper low angle stroke. The most disappointing aspect of the advice offered on the forum is how frequently sound information is dismissed by self-professed experts. I call them the “gatekeepers”. They control the flow of information. The scope of their knowledge is based on what they adapted or prefer. It amazes me that anyone could believe another member would knowingly publish false information that is so easily refuted or validated. Madness. Madness!

#95

This is an interesting point to me. Because I am a relative newbee I learned a lot without knowing anything else, and with no one to show me anything different. But I have learned some.

The idea that a low angle stroke makes the kayak yaw left, right, left, right was “news to me” when I was told ---- because I’d been doing low angle for 3 years and with some paddles that at 9 feet and 9 feet 1 inch long and if I sight over the stem of my kayak on a point on the other shore (3 miles off) I can keep it there within the thickness of a finger. I can do that with both low angle and high angle stokes.

I’ll grant that if I try to sprint from a stop, the long paddles do bring the stem left and right for about 4 inches either side of the sighting point for the first 4 strokes of so, but once I am up to cruising speed I see no such yawing at all. As a side note, all my kayaks (those I kept) are 16.5 feet to 17’ 4" long. I expect such yawing may be more noticed in 12-14 foot kayaks, but I can’t say for sure. My wife had a Prijon Yukon that was 14.5 feet long and I didn’t see any such yawing in it either.

That doesn’t make me right. I know that there is much I don’t know.

But it does prove to me that the idea that low angle strokes cause the constant “wobble” is also not some universal truth passed down on tablets of stone from Mount Sini.
It just ain’t so.

#96

Steve, I can typically keep the 145 Tsunsmi within plus/minus 5 degrees on a compass bearing. Another favorable feature of my test course is that the second leg to Hammerman is right on magnetic North.

Wind velicity and direction does have an impact, but I can keep the boat on track more easily when paddling the rudderless 145 Tsunami than I can with the 175 Tsunami, either with or without the rudder deployed. It seems that boat length has less influence on tracking than rocker.

I bought a used 145 Tsunami (rudderless) for my nephew a few years ago. On the first trip out with him using the boat, he couldn’t keep it tracking straight. We returned to the launch, and I took it for a test ride expecting the worst, that I bought a boat with a bent keel. To my surprise, the boat not only tracked straight, but turned equally well on left and right turns. Watching him paddle, I could see that the issue was his inconsistent paddling technique where he changed the cant of his paddle with each stroke. He eventually corrected the irregularities and managed to track straight.

He is now in his third season with the kayak. Last week, he asked me what would cause the boat to veer off course on a lake without current on a windless day. After he stopped paddling, the boat would turn as much as 125 degree before the glide deteriorated. I could think of one reason - user error!

When someone tells me low angle paddle stroke causes a boat to yaw, I assume one of two things. The boat doesn’t track well by design, or the person doesn’t know how to paddle low angle efficiently. The only other explanation I can think of is water goblins.

#97

I had a similar experience in my first year. Some days I could do OK and others I seemed to be out of control and could not go straight for 15 feet. I got he Chatham and it was easier because of length and the skeg, but even with that kayak I had a few problems in tracking a straight line for the first 4-5 month of my kayaking life.
I think you are correct. mostly operator malfunction.

#98

I was fortunate to have as my earliest paddling coach a friend who had been the National slalom racing champion of Canada several times in his younger years. He spotted what I was doing wrong right away the first time I paddled with him on a visit to Ontario for some kayak touring. He was able to guide me on all the body mechanics and critique my form before I got too set in bad habits.

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#99

Post a video of your no yaw 14.5’ low angle stroke going fast.

#100

Plus or minus 5° is 10° and it will affect speed I would say.