caution is indeed indicated…
and though i didn’t ‘cite’ Gord Giesbrecht, you can’t put anything past PNetters. read my bio, put 2 and 2 together and i guess it was obvious.
Gord is out to help people and save them from hypothermia: not give them a sense of invincibility. as a scientist he is compelled to report his findings, to wit- you are not certain to die within minutes of being immersed in freezing water. in fact, if you get control of yourself you can save yourself. the message for most people is- avoid the situation altogether if possible.
the message for serious outdoors people (and Gord is one too; not just a researcher)- like many PNetters; don’t give up because of some fallacy (Gord has tried to determine the root of the rote rule that everyone says about dying within minutes of being in freezing water- there is no scientific basis) but remain calm and be aware that you can survive.
as for myself? what’s my point then?
like many of you i have immersed my head in near freezing water a number of times. like Tommy the C1er i’m usually wearing appropriate headwear but i’ve been caught off gaurd in my early days. i’m alive.
maybe there is some sort of generalisation in my saying “you can control the gag reflex”. i say this from both my own experiences and what i have learned from Gord.
i bet my grandma wouldn’t have the same experience as me. or that i wouldn’t have the same experience if i was getting over the flu. in other words; it is inconclusive to say who will have precisely what response in each circumstance- as some of you have indicated.
the point is that just because we have heard from our earliest memories that we will die in minutes in freezing water doesn’t mean it’s true. in fact, it is patently, untrue.
that is not to say that we should not take every precaution to aviod a situation that would be very uncomfortable and traumatizing at the least- deadly at worst.
i advocate full drysuit in cold water (you choose the temp) and neoprene (or similar) skull caps, pogies or gloves and neoprene footwear. i dress to the nines because i want to paddle in comfort AND saftey, when most Manitobans are at home hibernating.
be well and to quote Gord “keep cool, but don’t freeze”
Are you being clear as community member
JBV remember you are addressing a wide range of people here in this community from super advanced to neophyte. Yes people don't just depend on this source for decisions. However, what you say here by interpreting research has consequences.
In good faith, I am not clear what you are saying, maybe it is just me, but from the point of view of a neophyte are you telling them you can 100 % of the time control a gasp reflex, laryngl spasm, arythmia, dizziness, physiological panic, loss of use voluntary use of arms from bloo PH changes due to hyperventilation? I think it is fine and important to know what to do and not do, how to be clothed, etc. to minimize these things.
It is not your intent to have people feel invincible, but you may just be doing that if people think, they can learn to control these responses 100% of the time. I also don't know what it is that made you post. It seems to me a straw argument you are making, few if any here post and say you are certain to die in first minutes. So give it another go would you.
A number of paddlers do not have silicone on, do not have adequate hoods on, use farmer johns and janes with water exposed on their necks, armpits, groin, don't believe in the gasp reflex, loss of strength and judgment, etc. So how would you accurately raise their awareness. Doesn't Gord himself say that people do die from intake of water and that it can be involuntary? What is the research % for those maximally clothed vs not so? I know divers who do under ice rescues who have told me they jumped in with maximal gear, face masks, etc, and even the near freezing water on margins of their face gave thema huge gasp reflex that cause problems as one had his breathing mouthpiece come off.
Not trying to be narly, just want the facts, no heat just the light for all our sakes.
Confusion may be…
about the specifics of the immersion. Looked at the stuff, it’s not clear what the stance is on controlling the response if the first and most submerged body part is the head. As pointed out above, that is one unique aspect of going over in a kayak compared to a canoe, or a fishing dinghy etc.
So - this research on hypothermia may help those who can see a problem coming and keep or get their head out of the water pretty much immediately. That’s a smaller crowd in kayaks - even lifting your head out of water with the kayak not rolled up requires a degree of flexibility that a lot of people don’t have. And it’s likely that only someone who has practiced rolling or other rescue skills in cold water will be able to pull the skirt and exit very very quickly if they are in a composite boat.
All that said, if it results in better guidance and/or clothing for people who do end up swimming it’d be quite valuable. Of the two people who told me last fall about coming out of their boat and pretty much losing it, one had been in a canoe.
Celia
Your Gasp reflex experience
The time that you did experience the gasp reflex, what was different about it? What protection from cold water were you wearing? I guess that you weren’t in a sink at the time since you state that your head was not underwater at the time.
I’m starting to wonder whether I should stop practicing rolls in icy water and do only group paddles during the winter.
Nelson
Hmmm…
"A number of paddlers do not have silicone on, do not have adequate hoods on, use farmer johns and janes with water exposed on their necks, armpits, groin, don’t believe in the gasp reflex, loss of strength and judgment, etc. So how would you accurately raise their awareness. "
Honestly, I don’t think we can if folks aren’t inclined. Some will not listen until after they survive an incident.
I don’t feel compell to go on a “crusade” since, really, there is quite a bit of info and caution already about the subject. I can add on by dumping info on my experiences and folks can do what they will. More important to focus on those we do (and are willing to) go out with.
I do dress for “bear” because I know I going to see “bear” out there. 
sing
Pretty close to my own sense of things
Yep, your response is close to my own current sense of things and sing’s reponse mirrors my experiences.
Still, like you, I am trying to be really open minded and to learn more about it. I can see both sides, the need to have people not just say, OK go ahead panic, but instead have them know what can be done, AND also our conern here about so many paddlers not having enough awareness of the gamble of winter/freezing water paddles as Jay Babina puts it.
Preventable, but likely not controllable
If you’re properly dressed for immersion and are wearing a hood that covers your head and neck, you can prevent gasp reflex from occurring. In my case, it occurred as soon as I submerged my head. I had been laying on the water for a few seconds prior to submerging, so that might have increased the likelihood of problems.
I have rolled in cold water in a dry suit without a hood on and not suffered from gasp reflex. I don’t know for sure if the short exposure prevented it, but I suspect that’s a big contributing factor.
If you’re not properly dressed and you can’t roll up immediately upon capsizing, I suspect that the likelihood of avoiding the gasp reflex is minimal. While some people can train to suppress it, the material I’ve seen on the subject indicates that this not something that just anyone can do with practice.
sing + Bnystrom= peace of mind
If I remind myself like Bnystrom + sing that the bear is there and I am the one who takes me to bear, then I ought to know that sooner or later I will experience bear.
It is difficult for any one us like sing says to learn until it happens, and not a sure thing even then. In my case a whole way of doing things had to come to a halt before I decided there might be another way.
Yep don’t force others, don’t force yourself, OK passs the silicone grease will you?
Here’s My "Bear…"
http://community.webshots.com/photo/260334917/260337743lJsYNV
Silicone grease anyone?
sing
Raw grease
That is one raw wind blown day, more power to you.
Great points Sing
Genetics will weed out the week ones, no need to save the world. Sharing your experiences in cold surf is of greater value than any preaching or research. They who have ears to hear, let them hear.
Gasp reflex – don’t worry ??
> But I don’t worry about it.
I dress to swim and I paddle with folks I trust to back me up if I flounder,
whatever the reason might b.e
I dunno. I think the point of the gasp reflex – why it’s so dangerous – is that you could have a lungful of water in an instant. In that case, your buddies might pull you out, but it would be too late.
Interestingly…
Was surfing awhile back, right after a snowfall. There was a guy with his buddy, both in wetsuits. My group were all wearing drysuits. But, nevertheless, those two were doing quite fine. Thank you. What was I going to tell him? His experience and skills led him to think he and his buddy were appropriately dressed. And, likely, they were. Somebody in drysuit could be in more trouble if they didn't have the skills to be out there in the first place.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/217399100/217401325ZNcvNZ
The margin of safety is an equation that involves more than just gear. Experience, judgement, skills and other factors all have a play.
sing
WIth Tommy…
No, I wouldn’t worry. The dude knows what he is doing. The guy has paddled rough and tumble, cold water spring runs more than most us have gone out in cold, flatwater days.
I suspect he knows more about his own tolerance to cold water than the average sea kayaker.
sing
Don’t need immersion to experience
gasp reflex or hypothermia. ‘Dr.Popsicle’s’ work is great. I’ve seen him do his thing on tv several times. His research is very helpful.
I got hypothermia during a summer rainstorm. I got soaked before I got the raingear on and had to ride (horse)about 10 miles back to the barn. The temp was dropping (from 80F to 60F) and I was a mess by the time I got home. I got hypothermia on a canoe trip about 5 yrs before that. I was wearing denim and the temp dropped from 75F to 40F during a thunderstorm. Did everything wrong and was eventually taken in by two little old ladies who took me in and parked me in front of their woodstove. I remember being incoherant and collapsing at their back door. They saved my life. I’m one of those people who doesn’t tolerate being wet very well, so I dress carefully now and stay within my reasonable limits.
I experienced the gasp reflex on a very hot summer day when some of my riding students dumped a tub of icewater on my head. I collapsed and couldn’t catch my breath. I’m probably more susceptable than some folks, but the extreme change in temp, especially after being out in the sun all day, can shock the body.
Dumping ice water on people
Yeah, I am waiting for the time when a coach has a heart attack and dies after his players dump ice water on him for a win. Call me morbid, but it could happen.
Don’t Worry.
Based on 8 years of early spring whitewater runs, including countless flips, rolls and swims, in which neither I nor anyone else I was with suffered from an underwater, uncontrolable “gasp reflex”, I’d say the chance of that happening is slim.
Be as aware and prepared as you can. Go for a swim (or three or twenty) in controlled conditions so you have some idea how YOU will respond.
Don’t waste your time and energy on useless worry.
Any difference…
… in gasp reflex if going in head fist vs. feet first? (other than the obvious difference of potential for instant death vs. time to panic if the reaction is the same)
Somehow I have to think nature has some sort of built in override to differentiate between a slip and fall and a more intentional dive. Most kayak dumps are much more like a dive,intentional or not. This could explain the cold surf/WW people not having it. Having lungs full of air when hitting the water has to make a difference too.
If the cold water was going from chest (or below) and moving up toward head - the reflex could give a lifesaving quick last second breath. Not a totally bad reflex. If head is first to immerse it would be fatal, but I can’t really imagine that being hardwired in.
If you go under, then pop up and gasp - I don’t count that as true gasp reflex. It’s an understandable and common shock/panic reaction, and could go into the hyperventilation scenario, but was held off until air was available. I’m talking strictly about an involuntary instant gasp when the cold watter hits the skin.
A simple test: Have two big tubs of ice water. Round 1 - have participants jump in feet first. Round 2 (after rewarming) have participants plunge head and torso into the tub.
We really don’t need to do this though - as we all know the results before even trying this: Many of the people will gasp reflexively in round 1. None will gasp in round two.
I have already gasped just reading this
Wow this thread is getting too powerful.
I think I just gasped reading about doing this.
No one’s yet said the
obvious–which is that, like height, weight, and the shape of your earlobes, people are different. Some people have very strong, irresistable gasp reflexes. Others have none. It’s easy enough to find out for yourself.
I experienced it diving into a cold mountain stream after a long, hot hike. I was just barely able to control my unbelievable urge to breathe, and came up thanking God that I hadn’t drowned.
I do think it is preventable–when paddling in cold water, immerse yourself slowly at the outset, and then keep your face wet.
As for JVB’s professor’s experience–1. Do you mind naming the professor? 2. There is lots of research on “acclimation”–you can reduce your risk of hypothermia by inuring yourself to cold water through gradual exposure early each winter season.
The best resource on these subjects that I’m aware of is still “Essentials of Sea Safety,” which should leave any reader scared silly about the dangers of the gasp and hypothermia.
Sanjay (who paddles year-round in Boston)