hello again, I understood the speed advantage of a longer kayak, the longer it is, the better it will be able to outrun it’s own bow wave, which is more efficient and faster.
but I keep hearing of another advantage of length, seaworthiness in rough sea. is this because a longer boat has more momentum/weight and slices through waves? thx
General rule in any boating they say no so substitution for length. Longer span over waves helps.
Depends on the type of waves. Banana boats are easier to manage in waves and surf. Touring boats can be a hand full on turns and quartering waves/wind.
There are factors other than length. For example, the NDK Explorer at 17’ 8" is known as a good foul weather boat. The Mariner Express at 16’ (more of a cult boat) is also an excellent foul weather boat (also true of other Mariners). The NDK Explorer is fairly neutral, often not needing its skeg until things get nasty. The Mariner has neither skeg nor rudder. Either boat if trimmed poorly will not fare so well. There are other boats at similar lengths that are not so good. Hopefully some folks with kayak design knowledge will speak up and give other examples.
It can be simpler than some of above. Sea kayaks handle rough seas better, reason is overall hull design not just one piece of it. Sea kayaks tend to be longer than rec or transition boats. From what I can see, I am not sure you have wrapped your head around the basic reasons for and differences between sea kayaks and those intended for easier waters.
I strongly suggest you find a place to spend a day in a basic lesson in sea kayak. A lot of what you are trying to sort out online is best handled by actually getting into a boat.
@Celia said:
It can be simpler than some of above. Sea kayaks handle rough seas better, reason is overall hull design not just one piece of it. Sea kayaks tend to be longer than rec or transition boats. From what I can see, I am not sure you have wrapped your head around the basic reasons for and differences between sea kayaks and those intended for easier waters.I strongly suggest you find a place to spend a day in a basic lesson in sea kayak. A lot of what you are trying to sort out online is best handled by actually getting into a boat.
Agree.
@Randall, another great question - keep them coming!
Here’s a good article for you which proves that generalities are, well, just generalities! Oh, and I agree that hull design is much more important than mere length.
https://www.paddlinglight.com/articles/tutorial/how-much-faster-is-the-longer-kayak/
thanks for your patience with my questions, i like to understand the science behind the design
You’ll understand it all more once you have a boat and start using it in real conditions. And don’t obsess about getting the “perfect” boat first time out. Most of us started with a much different boat than we use now – you aren’t going to know exactly what you want and need from a kayak until you’ve used one for a while. This is why we usually recommend starting with a used boat that is close to the basic size and type you need and that fits you. There is far less loss on reselling a used boat when and if you decide to change to something a little different.
yes, thats very true with every new hobby
@willowleaf said:
– you aren’t going to know exactly what you want and need from a kayak until you’ve used one for a while. This is why we usually recommend starting with a used boat that is close to the basic size and type you need and that fits you. There is far less loss on reselling a used boat when and if you decide to change to something a little different.
I’ll second Willowleaf’s advice. Nevertheless, I applaud your search for the correct boat. You’re likely to start out with a decent and fun choice on your path to boat #2 (of perhaps many).
One of the inherent difficulties of hull design is that there are lots of ways to achieve the same end, but all of the methods will have other affects upon hull performance. Every design is a series of tradeoffs and some designs are catered to a specific condition and cannot be equalled by any other hull design.
For example: Surfskis are long, skinny and tippy, but lots of surf playboats are short and fat (essentially, more along the line of river kayaks). What is going on here is that long and tippy has attributes (hull speed, for example, with a quick response to rudder) that compensate for the lack of being as playful and able to cut in the surf as a short/fat boat. Both are usable in surf, but they fit different styles.
In touring boats, long boats lack that beamy sense of stability (some of the long baidarka’s were so tippy, that they required an accomplished kayaker until the boat reached cruising speed and suddenly become stable and responsive). Turns out, the bifurcated bow on those old baidarkas, which was out of the water in calm seas, was really critical to boat handing when conditions were worse. Hard chines are an adaptation to give the boat better turning performance, especially when the boat is leaned, but they have other affects on the hull as well.
The perfect boat that does everything well is a myth, though that doesn’t stop designers from trying to find it. It is more important to find a hull that matches your skills and paddling style than it is to comply with stated rules for hull design. There are some guidelines:
-ignore LOA (length overall) for hulls, what matters is wetted surface. LOA is only an issue when the seas are in contact with the entire hull and those conditions are pretty rare, though LOA may be a factor in such conditions. If you routinely paddle in rough conditions,
-wetted surface has two features - when flat on the water and when leaned. Most/all hulls have a different wetted surface when leaned, so one needs to consider this when making a choice/test of a hull
-surface above water that is affected by wind (weathercocking) - probably self-explanatory
-forward volume/rocker (affect both wetted surface and how bow performs in waves)
-chines (affect both wetted surface and how boat performs leaned, possibly LOA, depending upon design)
And the list goes on. Swede form? Fish Form? Which is better (long debate about what is probably nothing here is possible). Any choice will affect what is possible with the rest of the hull and some tradeoffs simply will not work for some paddlers.
One of the sea kayak models that reportedly ticks off more performance versatility than most factory production boats is the 14 foot long F1, a skin-on-frame hand built model invented by Oregon kayak designer Brian Schulz. It helps that these are built to order to the height and weight of the paddler.
I agree you are asking a lot of good questions and doing due diligence. Applaud you for that.
But be careful that you don’t let the overwhelming volume of statistics and variables paralyze you into being afraid to pull the trigger on a decent boat. We’ve seen that happen here on the forums over the years. If you really fear “buyers remorse”, go for a used fairly common and popular brand/model that meets your current needs and that is in good shape so that it will be easy to trade up.
If I’m just making my way through rough conditions, I want to be in a longer boat that will get me where I’m going, faster and without wearing me out. For playing around in the slop, maybe a shorter boat, but one that still is able to catch waves.
Lots of good opinions above, let me offer one more. The need for speed. The longer narrower hulls are able to generate a greater speed on the water. If you find yourself coming in on an outgoing tide through channels or a river mouth, that faster hull may make the difference between success and waiting for the slack tide. It certainly will help!
Four opinions:
A longer boat can be slower. I once bought a fast 19 ft Seda Glider for my wife, thinking she would then be able to keep up with me. Did not work out.
A shorter boat can be slower. Best to get a length that suits your strength and technique.
For efficient/faster travel a rudder will always help.
For speed the same person might want might want a different length for racing vs paddling all day loaded.
@gjf12 said:
3) For efficient/faster travel a rudder will always help.
In relatively rough water, a rudder may be out of the water frequently and be ineffectual for that time.
@rsevenic said:
@gjf12 said:
3) For efficient/faster travel a rudder will always help.In relatively rough water, a rudder may be out of the water frequently and be ineffectual for that time.
What percentage of time do you think a rudder is out and which water conditions are the worst?
?
I have no idea if measurements have been made and clearly a skeg will be in the water more consistently. I suspect hull design is the more crucial factor. Such kayaks as the Mariners did very well in rough water and had neither skeg nor rudder, by design. You might check out the still extant http://www.marinerkayaks.com/.