ā¦ help 
Road trip cancelled.
1 Like
Iāve been following the thread since my initial comments near its beginning, and it has developed in a good way. Iād just like to reemphasize one of my initial commentsāincapacity, i.e., loss of muscle functionāoccurs long before true hypothermia. If youāre not in a PFD, drowning will follow very quickly. However, even if wearing Type III or Type V PFDs, which are what we use in paddle sports, when you lose more of your muscle function, youāll pretty quickly be unable to keep your face out of the water. Tables like the one added by @BorealWoods show āexpected time of survivalā based on hypothermia. In fact, real survival time will be much shorter, and death will be from drowning. Hereās an old but good video that explores the topic: Cold Water Boot Camp USA Note the gasp reflexes and very rapid incapacitation in 45 deg F water.
4 Likes
I cannot think of any offers you can make that she canāt refuse.
1 Like
I agree with the Old Eagle. To me, the first chart I posted is quite sobering. If a person is wearing a Type III or Type V PFD, then ātime to unconsciousnessā is probably their survival time. These types of PFDs, arenāt designed to hold an unconscious person face-up in the water.
And as others have pointed out, before losing consciousness a personās hands could be so numb as to be useless. Wind and wave conditions make matters worse.
At the risk of stating the obvious, thereās good information at the US Coast Guard website (PFD Selection, Use, Wear & Care). It shows a similar chart.
1 Like
Dear pikabike,
And therein lies the rub. Iām toast! 
Regards,
Tim Murphy
Harrisburg PA
I think thatās the best summary Iāve seen, thanks to you and BorealWoods for posting.
I like that it shows that danger may start up near 80 degrees. I know that people will refuse to swim in the YMCA pool at 80 degrees and right around 79-80 is considered ideal for swim team since the only way to stay warm is vigorous exercise.
I just wanted to add one point. Coldwatersafety.org points out that 50-60F is the highest risk temperature range for cold shock. To me thatās not intuitive and itās quite a different risk than long term immersion.
Funny (?) to see the disagreement on the threshold of ācoldā when it seems like such a non-controversial topic . 
https://www.coldwatersafety.org/water-temperature-safety-guide
3 Likes
Wow - this guy is super-human, but as I said before, for us normal folks the result is more often like this.
Letās think it through - immersion protection for paddlers is similar to the layering that you do in other outdoor activities.
Start with a moisture-wicking base layer next to the skin. Synthetic fabrics such as nylon, polyester and polypropylene work well since they donāt absorb water and move moisture from your skin. Stay away from cotton. Some people use a base layer with neoprene, some people donāt. You definitely need it with a drysuit.
Next come the insulating layers. Neoprene is really the only insulating layer that works well when wet. In the coldest water you will need full coverage. Wetsuits should fit tight to minimize the influx of cold water (not a good picture for us old fogey paddlers 
), and thick enough to provide appropriate insulation for the conditions.
Fabric-based insulating layers (fleece, wool, and other non-absorbing materials) need to be kept dry under protective outer layers, so they are of limited use in the water unless you have a drysuit. (Carrying dry cloths in a drybag is a good idea for when you get out of the water.)
A windproof/waterproof outer layer comes next. Splash wear is an outer layer that will keep your insulating layers dry if you get splashed or rained on. If you go for a swim in splash wear, your inner layers will get wet, so the insulating layer needs to be neoprene. Splash wear will also cut down on evaporative cooling from the wet outer fabric of the wetsuit.
Drywear is the next level of protection. Dry suits come with neoprene (semi-dry) or latex (dry) gaskets to block water entry. Since the drysuit keeps your insulating layers dry, you are not limited to neoprene as an insulating layer, and can mix and match fabric-based insulating options depending on the weather and water conditions.
So the answer for low-cost immersion protection ā Iād say a neoprene wetsuit (coverage and thickness appropriate for the conditions) and a splash top. Donāt forget head, hands and feet ā probably neoprene there as well. I went to NRS and added it all up - $500. Not cheap, but a lot less than a drysuit.
1 Like
I may overthink the cold water topic since I have some background in heat transfer so I look at immersion as a heat transfer problem with various clothing layers affecting conduction and convection. Iāve also done a little bit of subjective evaluation of various garments in a YMCA pool just because Iām curious.
My base layer is a synthetic compression layer. The compression helps reduce both conduction and convection. A tight fitting Speedo is warmer than a heavier loose-fitting swimsuit. So in 65 or 70 degree water I think folks would be better off if wore their Speedo or bicycle shorts or two pair of yoga pants as an underlayer versus just street clothes. I think that even just a synthetic skull cap is a fine idea to provide a little protection against dipping your head one time when falling in. So I do think about the āeasyā things that folks can do that are directionally correct.
I also think about ātunabilityā. I can cover a broad range of my paddling needs with a 2 mm neoprene vest and shorts and tuning the warmth with underlayers, overlayers, headwear, footwear and gloves. I often have to make adjustments during a winter paddle as I first get too warm and then too cold.
For me, paddling on rivers where I can get out fairly quickly, I think about the risk of dipping my head so as we exit Summer I first make sure to wear a synthetic skull cap and Iāll switch to my 0.5 mm neoprene skull cap next and I use the (amazingly comfortable) Kokotat balaclava that I bought at Celiaās recommendation for the coldest conditions (sometimes in combination with the NRS skullcap). In my mind $28 for the NRS skullcap and $40 for the Kokotat balaclava is pretty high value for top quality head protection and the NRS and Kokotat headgear also provide easy ways to tune your warmth while paddling.
For immersion in the coldest water I think your low cost recommendation is solid but maybe not the only option. My semi-dry Kokotat was not much more than $500 and seems way more versatile that a thick wetsuit since itās comfy over a broad range of temps and the drysuit that tdaniel mentioned is under $500. Personally I canāt stand thick wetsuits.
I hope I donāt sound like Iām trying to debate you, if so I apologize. I just enjoy the discussion.
3 Likes
Debates are good, but in this case you are singing to the choir. I am in the āeveryone who paddles in cold water (except Sing with his wetsuit ) should have a drysuitā camp. For me a drysuit is much more comfortable, more flexible and warmer that a wetsuit. There are some inexpensive versions, and you can find drysuits used for less money, but the drysuit is only the outer layer. You still need a base layer, insulating layers and protection for your head, feet and hands. It is going to cost more, but well worth the money in terms of comfort IMO.
Iām less concerned about water temps in the 60ās and 70ās, although I guess if you are in the water long enough it could be a concern. Rivers and lakes around here are in the mid-50ās now. In a month they will be in the mid 40ās. We could still have days with air temps in the mid to high-70ās. Those are the days when the inexperienced get into trouble.
2 Likes
I was very fortunate when we capsized a canoe in 41Ā° water. I went under with no gasp and the pfd popped me up. The river bank was 15ā away and the air temp was 70ish. I got out of the water in a hurry.
1 Like
I went in on a New Yearās Day paddle in Ann Arbor in 35 degree water and fortunately the Huron is āstand up and walk outā in most places so multiple layers of synthetics worked just fine for me for that one situation. But there are so many variables that can work against you and I take more precautions these days. More recently I had a buddy fall into deep 50 degree water at a put-in on the Kalamazoo and I think he got out as quickly as he fell in.
1 Like
I think Doggy Paddler may have nailed it. I canāt believe the selection of affordable wetsuit stuff on Facebook marketplace in Ann Arbor.
It varies. Water temp is too cold only when the paddler does not have the appropriate clothing for immersion for that water temp.
I agree with this because people paddle recreationally in different ways.
While I am searching for a drysuit, Iām using layers of wetsuits that I already own and I just picked up neoprene pants (1 mil) for 29 dollars on Amazon. So if I layer that under my Lavacore 1.5 full front zip and a Henderson vested hood, I can achieve quite a bit and still peel off layers to climb around and explore the shore a bit.
Iām trying to imagine a drysuit in that scenario and I just donāt know enough yet to make such a big purchase. The other thing is they are much harder to find here.
The Henderson Hyperstretch hooded vest I wear layered when diving and it retails for 150 but I have found a couple on eBay for 15-20 each, like new.
Also it seems there are those out there that favor wetsuits for the best protection and Iām still exploring those reasons.
For me to spend 1000+ Iām going to have to try the drysuit on and preferably in the water and be able to return it (at this point because Iām so unsure)
I was ready to pull the trigger on a Kokatat I found on Amazon because I know I can try it and return it, Iāve never had a return rejected. But itās now not available.
Also my issue is I CAN climb back in wearing a wetsuit but I have my doubts wearing a drysuit, the layers and the chest style PFD and that makes me feel uneasy because sometimes Iām by myself and I need to know I can get out of the water. Yes, Iām scared of a leaky drysuit. I see all those zippers here and there and honestly I canāt fathom how they donāt leak given enough time immersed. I would be very hesitant to put my dog or myself on an inflatable SUP as well because when I was at the shop, two people came in with leaks.
On the one hand, I believe the people with experience, but on the other hand Iāve never gotten in trouble sticking with my own judgement and not exceeding what my ability is (climbing back in.)
I have had a couple of drysuits over the past 15-years (they do wear out with use), but I have never had a problem will leaking. Latex neck gaskets are more secure than neoprene - Iāve always had latex. Zippers have never leaked, unless I didnāt close them all the way - user error, not zipper failure.
1 Like
I believe you but were you immersed for an extended amount of time?
I guess I canāt imagine how zippers donāt leak eventfully. Iāve spend a lot of time underwater with lots of camera housings, dome ports with gaskets I have to coat with silicone and eventually something leaks, through the tiniest pin hole.
And why is the guy I posted above saying neoprene is safer? Susan Conrad wore a Farmer Jane with a paddling jacket over that for the trip up the Inside Passage, Iād like to know why.