tho
clubs who offer the sho/go as a club trip are becoming fewer and farther between cuz of liability.
all the leader has to do is let someone on the trip who’s maybe not ready for it, and do something a shade on the negligent side, get the person in trouble and whamo he’s in court kissing his life away. It’s happened enough to scare off many clubs. Heck it scares the be-jezus outta me and I’ve been doing it for nearly 20 years! Crossing T’s and dotting I’s is hard work.
Our local club OOPS (Oregon Ocean Paddling Society) is quite anal about their trips for fear of liability.
and IMO they should be. it can be a pretty technical sport. the wind/ weather/ conditions kicks up a notch and presto only talented paddlers should be there. PERIOD. hard to regulate w/ novice/ beginners.
steve
Flatpick… I was newsletter editor of
one of the largest canoe clubs in the US, Georgia Canoeing Assn, for 12 years, and I am an honorary life member. The present editor watches the other clubs on the internet, and reprints or reports issues of interest.
I have never heard of a canoe or kayak club being sued. There must have been at least one or two instances, but if it were as much of a threat as you say, surely I would have heard of specific instances, in the numbers to support your statement.
Nevertheless, because there are several lawyers on the GCA board, they instituted a waiver policy for each trip participant about half a dozen years ago. Their real reason was not that waivers prevent lawsuits. I’m in healthcare, and I know they don’t. Their real reason was that they had to have liability insurance to run the Southeastern slalom on the Nantahala, and the ACA would only provide event insurance if GCA required waivers on club trips. You see how tangled it gets.
My personal opinion is that holding oneself out to be an expert instructor and having liability insurance and waiver forms JUST MAKES YOU A TARGET FOR LAWSUITS.
I’m also a licensed psychologist, and I am on the ethics committee at my hospital. To get our licenses renewed, we have to take at least three hours of “ethics.” Guess what. Not one of those courses has talked about ANYTHING except how not to get sued, how not to violate APA rules, and how not to get called before the state board.
you’re right
come to think of it it’s the ‘fear’ of it happening that has scared off the clubs in my area. not sure it has happened to a club.
I DO know it has happened to individuals, tho. one in particular where it was proven that the phone call asking a buddy to go paddle was enough to qualify him as the leader. the river was flooding and someone didn’t make it home. It was nasty and probably happened 15 years ago.
yes the worst thing in the world is an ‘expert’ running trips in conditions- liability-wise. you’re just asking for it. Tho it’s what i do. I can run as clean as possible, develop a history and NOT F*$#-up and hope people realise it ain’t Dizzneeland. part of what’s good about a award system. it gives a ‘rank’ to the student/ participant and allows me to place them in an appropriate course or trip.
scary stuff liability is. and funny how in Australia and New Zealand you can get away with most everything. self-responsibility. the way it should be. US lawyers are the real breadwinners!
ouch
steve
Wouldn’t having a BCU or ACA
certification set one up as an “expert” and then increase the liability?
Just trying to think like some lawyer would and second guess him.
you can paddle but you can’t hide
Possibly so as I have seen and heard and read, and unfortunately there is now increasingly nasty liability for those not not certified and held to similar standards despite not having that certification. As explained to me, you are now required to know what the standards are and if you, me, the group, org don’t comply, too bad, should have known. It is narly for sure.
Yes, when our club went “waiver,” and
I responded by no longer leading trips, they asked me what to do. I said, we don’t have any business pretending that we can meet abstract standards of safety. Rather than having club trips, we should merely list people who are not leaders, but only private individuals who might, or might not, associate with people who approached them about running a particular section of river.
I figure what the courts do depends on the size of my estate. I don’t think I am likely to get sued for such modest holdings. And my thirty years experience tells me that I am unlikely to get sued at all.
don’t know specifics for our sport
The stats I was sharing are for the outdoor industry in general, and I do not know frequency in our sport today. Please take my sharing as my concern, not a statement of taking any side in these issues, just a reality that is sliding along in our liability land. Do check out the book and a website called outdoored.com for other resources if interested. I don’t have a clue how to think about all this yet, but it does worry me at times.
maybe
it’s all based on ‘gross negligence’. they gotta prove that first.
Bring in a ‘expert’ witness and if they say this is something out of the ordinary, you’re screwed.
If you’re in ‘normal operating procedures’ you’re less likely to be held liable.
a good track record and documentation of training, procedures, protocol,paddling log, etc, helps your defense.
I try and be as ‘official’ as I can when doing trips, business or pleasure.
steve (off to do 3 days of L-4/5 paddling with clients and friends)
YIKES!!! =:-0)
Sho & Go
is not an “organized” trip. It’s me saying that I am going be at such and such a place, you’re welcome to paddle along with me, but I am not responsible for your safety nor you mine. I see minimal liability as I assume no leadership or responsibility since this leads to the question of my qualifications to take on responsibility and leadership.
The more one begins to screen folks before allowing them to show, the more “paperwork” that is used, the more “authority”, perceived or otherwise, that is taken on, the more liability that accompanies it.
Right now, the surfing group that I hang with, Northern NE Surk Kayakers, has a yahoo group bulletin set up for sho & go’s. Anyone can post where they are surfing and the conditions expected. Who ever attends makes a decision whether they can handle the venue because they’re responsible for themselves. Self selection happens on just about every SnG.
Now, when something happens, it’s not to say someone out there won’t be available to help. Most likely folks will try. They do so not because they’re obligated as an official trip leader but because of their own volition. I would think the “Good Samaritan” rule kicks in.
sing
I am too sceptical
While the idea of certification appeals to me too, my personal
practical experiences with the paddling certification courses are
too negative to believe in them. As it is now, I do not fit
in the (BCU) system, because I don’t want to perform inefficient
paddle techniques just to please an examiner, especially
when that examiner turns out to be hardly able to paddle well…
If you let somebody talk enough…
eventually they will reveal themselves. In this case I think one of the issues is anger over competition from Wal-Mart and GI-Joes for kayak sales. I would like to see if this “movement” is being pushed by people who would have financial gain if certification became mandatory. I seriously doubt the ACA and BCU represent the majority of paddlers in the United States.
When they require national certification to ride a bicycle down our busy and dangerous roads, then perhaps certification for a human powered boat will follow. If it came to pass, then I hope regulation would be provided by a government body such as the US Coast Guard.
not the BCU
I know. ineffcient strokes?
more?
steve
just about
>>Self selection happens on just about every SnG.
just about every?
This is where trouble can brew. If it’s proven that someone else helped with the selection of said trip, some responsibility can be shifted. It sucks but one must be wary.
steve
wrong
It’s not all about the $$$. It’s about having an EDU process in position that works. and one that adresses the neophite that happens into the sport by way of Wal-mart.
You seriously want the CG to regulate us? Dude, what planet do you come from?
steve
I wouldn’t want you …
to regulate me.
An expression comes to mind…
“Don’t let the fox guard the hen house”
Relating to SCUBA…
On almost every commercial dive boat in the world every diver has to have a certification. I hold a “divemaster” cert. which is the first “professional level”. I earned this cert. not to work but for my own personal benefit, and it does cut me some slack at times.
What I later learned is that if something goes wrong even if I am just a passenger on a boat, every professional on the boat could be liable for the accident, especially in the states.
Now I rarely list the “divemaster” when signing in and list one of my basic levels.
This could carry over into club trips if a paddler is certified and something goes wrong…
Kill All The Lawyers… GH
If Someone Wants To Suit
they will but I believe that they would be hard pressed to lay it on me. We're not an organized group. There ain't any certifications. We don't ask for any and we don't care. There ain't any leaders and no one claims to be.
I think anyone who proclaims "leadership" assumes a certain liability. Folks who are certified are supposed to know better. Implicit assumption of leadership if you take any effort to screen or organize the event. Both combine to give more liability.
Hey, I am just a knucklehead who is taking a risk with my own life out there. If you happen to be there and paddle out with me, you must be a knucklehead too. ;)
sing
Eye opening book
The book Lessons Learned, a guide to accident prevention and crissis response is the ground breaking book in the outdoor field to reveal what is not publicized and little known, how many law suits are there, how many get settled without the public knowing, how many volunteers and profesional leaders lives messed up and more importantly what we can do about it.
The most revealing chapter is called "The Jury's In". It shows what few people know, that law suits do happen, that even though you may win the case that your love of the sport will be trashed, your life diverted for years, your friends family and club may not stick with you through misunderstandings, fears, etc. and that a number of folks suffer financial distress and even ruin. Very grimmy.
NOT SAYING THIS LIKE CHICKEN LITTLE AND SKY IS FALLING. Only reason is respect to you all here who I increasing depend upon for humor, perspective, and great tips and solutions.
For me personally, not being nearly as experienced in the sea realm as many who post here I don't know yet whether it is too much of a hassle to lead once I have enough skills, experience, etc. I will say that as an experienced, trained, certified leader in the hiking, backpacking, mountain world, I finally quit leading as the org I was in had such terrible policies that my neck felt too far out there. Much happier now heading out with like minded people whose judgment and common sense dictates they learn some skills, help each other's backside, and keep a sense of humor about things.
this is the attitude of fear
that I see/commented on surrounding certification. People don't even know what it's about, and are really just afraid of failure, so they dismiss it as pointless, when really they might benefit from some quality instruction.
In what way does the BCU suggest that anyone use an inneffecient stroke? What stroke do you mean, forward, backward, side-sculling, hanging draw, stern rudder?
Walmart etc.
The whole point of certification is to AVOID government regulation. The issue of Walmart is not about $$, but about safety. Walmart does not sell anything except the cheapest products they can get and as such these products are barely appropriate for the most benign conditions. Yet, at the point of sale the consumer is rarely/never given information regarding appropriate use. To non-paddlers little distinction is seen between rec boats and real kayaks except size and price. This will inevitably lead to more fatalities, which will bring on such things as mandatory boater education from the government. However, this “boater education” will come in the form of written multiple choice tests that will then relieve Walmart from any burden of liability.
Most of us that have been paddling for awhile know that paddling requires physical skills as much a knowledge. The point of certification is not to limit ones paddlesports experience, but to expand it. I, for one, don’t beleive that paddlers should be certified, but that ALL instructors should have a measurable level of competence.