“Inefficient” or “not applicable”?
As a Greenland paddler, I would say that either or both apply in some cases, as the prescribed and required BCU techniques are too inflexible to work optimally with a GP. Yes, they can be done, but if you're not going to paddle that way other than to pass the certification test, what's the point?
Absolutely, the skills are valuable
I agree with that completely. One should certainly learn the basic strokes. However, I really wonder if certification in them means anything. While training is valuable, paying extra to tell you that you’re doing them right so you can get a certificate seems like a complete waste of money to me. The way I look at it is that if you can complete the training, you should be certified. The current process seems like little more than a way to milk extra money from students.
BCU and Greenlandic skills misconception
I took my 4 star sea assessment this spring, myself and the other three candidates all used greenland paddles. No mention was made about the type of paddle we used, or about the differences in stroke. The instructor would ask us to demonstrate a skill, and if it was performed to his satisfaction nothing was said. If it wasn’t he would ask us to do it again. So I think your point about non-applicable or ineffecient may be off the mark, or perhaps based on your interaction with some wily east-coast cough… new hampshire neo-fascist BCU types. But in the mid-west where people are more civil, decent, and caring towards one another, it was not a problem…
(I apologize in advance for calling people from new hampshire facsists, but I’m sure Garrison Keillor is somewhere smiling, if that could in any way be construed as pleasant, or beneficial)
Keith…
"that I see/commented on surrounding certification. People don't even know what it's about, and are really just afraid of failure, so they dismiss it as pointless.."
I am sure there is an element of relevance to certain folks. But me thinks that you may be putting too much into it as well. If 3 stars give you more "peer approval", power to you and your peers. :) You realize, of course, the reverse side of fearing failure is the fear of not having approval or the sanction of some authority and thus getting deriative "authority."
Getting those ratings have a monetary and financial costs. Not everyone can afford, or want to expend that, especially if they are not intending on being some outfitter's instructor. Some folks may actually feel the whole process is just not worth it despite maybe wanting achievement and/or sanctioning. But, really... if somebody really, really needs that sanctioning, for whatever reason, they can just keep on practicing, take however many prescreening lessons, and then test as much as needed til they pass. It's not a BIG deal if this is really want they feel needed to qualify their competence.
And, some folks simply revolt against such structure and authority. The "rebels" as you put it. I really should see a psychologist about my problem but I'll readily admit to being such a rebel, especially with activities that I pursue for my own enjoyment or "self actualization."
The last time I "tested" for anything was when I participated in a new martial art where the "culture" of the school was that you tested. It really was not about competence per se but about "buying" into the culture and the heirarchy. I simply demurred for a long time from testing. But folks get pushing and pushing me to test. They just couldn't stand the fact that I didn't place much importance on the "testing" (which to me is different from competence). So, every so often I would test and pass (even though folks that started with me but less competent were a couple steps ahead in rank). Six years later, on the test just before BB, I was strongly being pushed to test again. So, I said, "Aw fudge..." and tested. I told my attacker to come all out in speed and power... So, I slammed him all over place and gave him a black eye. My "peers" were impressed but afterwards some of the testing board instructors comented that I was "too rough." Cracked me up. I passed the test but quit that place (though one step short of the "coveted" bb). What these folks couldn't seem to understand was that I'd been through the "real stuff" on the street. To me, the "testing" of my abilities was just that, a make believe test in a controlled environment which didn't mean anything to me. That bb didn't mean a thing to me. But, for those folks, it meant alot.
So whatever skills I have aren't sanctioned. But if you think that's what needed for me to be out there playing, or for you to play with me. Well, it really doesn't matter to me. It's what I want to do and can do that matters.
sing
"rebel for a personal cause"
Not with you…
I don’t think Walmart is the problem. But what do I know… I’m just a cousin marrying, Bible thumping, ignert wannabee.
Anyway…
http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Technique/index.cgi/noframes/read/4360
remind me
not to get inside your peripheral vision in a dark alley.
This is probably a conversation about something else that is masquerading as a commentary about paddling. Some people need/want structure either to guide them, or to rail against. Other people maybe Sing included, prefer to not see the world with this structure, don't seek approval or dissaproval but want to simply exist without interference from this structure of order.
What I was to trying to recognize or point out was that some folks who are railing against this structure of order are doing this because it's in their nature to be this way about everything and that it's not specific to paddling.
I'm not sure where I stand, certainly I learned most of what I know about paddling from doing it, not from the BCU/ACA. I think having a test to study and prepare for did focus my energy on some of the seamanship area that I was not motivated to study on my own. So I dunno based on this I am not ready to dismiss certification if it motiviates people to learn something new. But as you point out if it is merely for external validation, it can be pretty limiting.
I paddle with more people that aren't certified than those who are, I don't think the certification thing limits who I'll paddle with and who I won't, because it really was mainly about learning something new for me. I wanted to push my limits. And if this makes me less of a paddler and a person I guess I'll have to somehow find a way to live with that. But it's the same thing with running with me, I train and train on my own and then a couple times a year I go out and race, do a marathon, or something to see how fast I can go. Not because I need to best or first in line, but because with a little competition I give a better performance. I think for me it's the same thing with kayaking, I like paddling with people who are more skilled than I am so I can learn something and push my limits.
By the way just from your energy and enthusiasm I give you the honorary keith wikle 12 star sea/surf/whitewater award, just don't break my nose.
Way Of Life…
Yes, I want to live and die on my own terms, if possible. This applies to my paddling and all other aspects of life.
sing
PS. I am not down on all "structures." They're needed for a variety of reasons in social interactions and situations. It just shouldn't be an "either/or" situation.
certainly there is room
for wiggling in all regards, paddling, and non-paddling.
I think what’s evident is that we both like kayaking, alot…
Al the more reason to…
… paddle alone!
Many of the points in favor of certs seem to be stressing the value of good instruction. Obviously such instruction is helpful, but is a completely separate issue from certifications, rankings, etc. It seems there are good and bad instructors of both ilk.
As I look ahead to gaining more proficiency, I do consider taking various courses, some leading to ratings. Maybe someday I’ll start collecting stars - and just not tell anyone!
For now, money seems better spent on gear. Time better spent paddling than driving for hours to take lessons. The water is a pretty effective teacher.
“BCU week”? Mutli day development workshops? Who has time for all this certification? Professional guides/shop owners/tour leaders? Retired people?
it does take a lot of time and money
and you're right if you do emphasise it too much you give up something too, like money spent on paddling trips.
For the money spent on an ACA or BCU Certification training, you could probably spend a week on the water in some place with lots of rocks, trees, and no people.
It is mainly people who have money to spare, single/divorced white men over the age of forty.
However I know a few women like this too.
Do you have…
… their phone numbers? L
“It is mainly people who have money to spare… I know a few women like this too”
Rebel Rebel
Your hair is a mess…
nah that can’t be it.
Instruction, etc.
Maybe it’s a carryover from flying, but I see a lesson as a great way to learn about a new area. If the geography/traffic/conditions are a lot different than what you’re used to, a little time with an local instructor can be a good investment in your safety.
A multi-day skills workshop sounds like a great vacation to me! It sounds like Steve runs some of those on his stretch of coast, and that you can learn a hell of a lot in a few days.
In hang-gliding the rating system has concrete benefits associated with each step, including access to more challenging sites. The BCU system and the hang-gliding rating system are similar enough so that when I started paddling it made sense to me.
BCU certification sessions can be a fine way to get some free instruction. My wife & I had a great time being “students” for instructor certification testing at the Great Lakes Sea Kayak Symposium.
Hmmm…
you two are obviously drifting into some sort of “inter-personal” territory… 
sing
I Did Wear My Hair
down beyond by shoulders in the 70’s. Now, that just about anything goes wiht hair, I shave everything that’s left off.
sing
paddling.net
could be making a fortune by offering a paddlers dating service for lonely 40 year old men.
I think I’ve seen at least three or four outright advertisements of singledom out here. Thank god I’m married.
dojo culture mismatch
I had a culture mismatch when I took judo for a while at the urging of a friend. I had no desire to compete, and no delusions about self-defense – I just wanted to see what my friend was so excited about. The culture there emphasized sparring and competition at a very early level – way before I thought I was ready. I was just enjoying figuring out the biomechanics and being a good practice partner, and had no real desire to throw someone who didn’t want to be thrown. So I didn’t test, and eventually quit.
Structures that don’t match your goals are usually frustrating. Structures that match your goals can be helpful.
The NHAMC folks seem to have some structure for those who want it, but they’re flexible enough not to make it mandatory.
huh?
jeesh, for a guy i know and like…i disagree with you a lot!
so, getting back to the matter at hand.
o quote SNL in the 70’s “jane you ignorant sl_t”
no.no.no.
if you can complete the training you should be certified? that completely obviates any use of a certification process don’t you think?
look at our own trip leaders within the club…do you think that some of those folks should leave shore, let alone LEAD a trip? the safest thing for all is to absolutely NOT let them lead a trip…and since the “certification” within the club has no meaning other than joe blow showed up for his 20 hours of training, is why we have to send a more experienced paddler on the trip along with the erstwhile “trip leader”, we need to police it from within and make sure someone who is likely to bring folks back to shore is along in case things go south!
i completely disagree with what i understand you to mean. life is more than about just showing up - as i understand it in your scenario, a paddler can show up, fail miserably at the skill sets required and still be certified? certified to do what? either along the coaching tracks or in the personal skills development track, if you are going to certify (and i think that for the safety of all, cert’s are a good, good thing) then they need to be legit and not just a matter of showing up.
no, the certification process needs to hold folks to standards and without holding folks to those skill sets then the cert. if useless.
…and for that matter, the BCU 3 star was a lot tougher than the 4 star and the then the 5 star is on just a whole different level.
my dos centavos
Yes…
I am in agreement with your earlier assessment of the situation in your earlier post to Keith. I either paddle by myself or with my wife. Mandatory certification would probably end my wife’s participation in the activity.
My first degree was in mining engineering. I never joined the ACA because I did not share their political views. I do not want them speaking for me. I have seen that influential members within the ACA do not respect the wishes of the majority, but instead will lash out with such vindictiveness as to make your head spin if you contradict their minority opinions.
Fortunately the Coast Guard is apolitical, and if push came to shove this is the governing body I would want over my sport.
Does your wife…
Have any girl friends???