I didn’t read it that way at all
I thought his point was: If you already have the skills, you should be able to test without having to pay for a bunch of lessons you don’t need. Like skipping grades in school.
People should pay for something that will give you a return (lessons above their current level), not pay to spend time and money rehashing the basics or skills already mastered for the “privilege” of some cert.
If someone is not ready, they don’t pass and have to pay to retest.
But then, would the testing be fair? Who’s going to get the easier pass - the long time student (failing your own looks bad - and they’ve paid you a lot of money), or the one who shows up to test out (you don’t know and haven’t gotten a dime from except the testing fee)? Somehow I doubt paid instructors will be 100% objective here. Outsiders are always judged more harshly.
If the goal is getting more qualified paddlers, people should be able to test out. If the goal is money for many stages of lessons - then no. Looking at it this way, the motivation seems clearer.
lots of sisters
but they are all hitched or very close to being hitched. yeehaw!
Yeah…
“Structures that don’t match your goals are usually frustrating. Structures that match your goals can be helpful.”
Yeah, I agree. Just don’t mixed up the “structure” with the goals and realized there are different paths to reach a goal.
Going back to the MA analogy – and it does apply somewhat to the paddling discussion – I started MA training as young teen to learn to fight. I was never interested the belt system. Good thing I knew the head instructor and told him what my goal was. Almost from the first week, I was sparring. I got my butt kicked alot but I also kicked a lot of butts including those of bigger and higher ranks. (BTW, liabiity issues have kicked in where today’s “sparring” matches are like a game of touch tag and why I got into boxing). I also competed regionally and nationally and did well. But all these structured “tests” were not real. The real tests were occuring with stuff happening on the streets at that time.
The gist of it was I never tested for rank back then. Finally, after ten years, my instructor petitioned the home office in Okinawa and I was “granted” a BB. About 5 years ago I was again “granted” a 5th degree. To me these are “dead” decorations and pieces of paper. It is a laughable thing when I see fat old men talk about how they are this or that rank when clearly they are paper tigers. For me, what counts is what I can or cannot do is situations where there is a price to failure rather than just a blow to the ego. So, I still train with a small group of partners and we’ll bang it out. About 5 years ago, I entered an open BB NE-AAU regional contest in NH and competed against guys half my age and 50 lbs or more heavier and ended in second place. Some “higher ranks” actually still seek me out to train with them when a competition comes around. But even these aren’t “real tests.” Thankfully, I dont’ “bang” it out the streets anymore. But, truthfully, I not afraid to do that either if push comes to shove.
Coming back to paddling again (which has some relevance in my “sick mind”), I have no problem with a “rating” system. I know it motivates folks to learn, just like a ranking/belt system does when laid out for them. Just don’t take the tests entirely as a true measure of how someone will perform in real life. It gives an indication of physical skill sets but it doesn’t capture everything. In a real life or death situation, a range of other physical and mental variables kick in.
As if this isn’t already apparent, I am a “fly by the seat of the pants, kick me in the butt/head, and I’ll learn something kind of guy.” That’s just the way I am and how I learn. That’s why some of the structures don’t work for me and I give it no meaning. But I recognize that they do work and have value for others.
sing
Shaved head = less resistance!
Went clean several months ago. Learned to roll shortly thereafter. Coincidence? 
Thank God I’m not! L
HEY!!!
I’m an over 40 woman (with spare money to spend on kayaking)…
…I thought the BCU stars were just like being in kindergarten (FUN to get!)…
didn’t realize it is such a “hot topic”…
I’d better go back to lurking before the lawyer bashers find me …
Joanne
real life consequences
Yup. Sometimes the demonstrated skills don’t transfer to new situations very well. The hang-gliding community was pretty good about understanding that: “OK, you’re a Hang 3, but how many assisted cliff launches have you done? Where? What kinds of winds? This site has a couple of features that can bite you. Tell you what, why don’t you come out here with me and watch a few people go off before you go suit up.”
Blindly accepting the rating could mean watching someone die, or losing the site, or both. But you’ll find very few pilots who think the rating system is a bad idea.
I guess one difference is that it’s rare to lose a put-in because of a boating accident. It’s not unusual to have a launch site shut down – sometimes permanently – when there’s a hang-gliding accident.
ahhhh-haaaa
Okay. Bryan-you may not be an ignorant slut…ha!
On the assessing vs taking classes thing though…the ONLY personal skills you can’t asses for without having gone through the required training is 5 star. For that you need to take the training class first but for the certs 2-4 you CAN assess out without having to take the training prior.
Now…whether or not the assessor is going to be as “fair” with someone right off the dock as opposed to someone they’ve been coaching all along…guess that’s an integrity issue. I personally have taken training through pretty much only 1 facility but of the folks I know…they’re a pretty fair bunch but don’t have a wide enough base to say…it is though pretty far fetched for me to believe that someone would fail you on an assessment JUST so that they could turn around and offer you training…
On the coaching side…I think you coul assess for a coach 2 auto as a 5star but besides that I think it’s pretty rigid guidelines…they protect the integrity of the certs pretty closely I think.
Bryan - I was kidding about the ignorant slut thing…was funny though! Haven’t heard that one in years!
kwikle wrote:
>this is the attitude of fear that I see/commented on surrounding
certification. People don’t even know what it’s about, and are
really just afraid of failure, so they dismiss it as pointless,
when
really they might benefit from some quality instruction.
I will (and have had) benefit from quality instruction.
But what if you have to oblige to bad instruction?
If have seen too many bad instructors to indeed fear them.
In what way does the BCU suggest that anyone use an inneffecient
stroke? What stroke do you mean, forward, backward, side-sculling,
hanging draw, stern rudder?
From what I remember:
Had to use a J-stroke to go straight, while I don’t need a J -stroke
most of the time as I use a pitch stroke. Had to do a long arched
sweep stroke while short square ones are more effective. And had to
do a low brace in a way that I would never do or need it.
Now I know one can argue about this all for a long time, but if the
one who examines me doesn’t paddle better than I can, this sure is
hard to comply too.
Personally I think basic certification should be (more) based on
boating techniques (what you do with a boat: going straight,
turning. etc) than paddling techniques (x-strokes). But that is a
whole different topic.
I do not mind the idea or certification
But, I do mine the idea of inconsistant sttandards among instructors who are testing. BCU and ACA should make a video available to students and instructors and make it known that this is what the standards are. I've heard some ridiculous stories from folks who have not been granted level three status, though I'd paddle wiht them almost anywhere I could imagine. (they are way better paddlers than me.)
Also I've heard some say you cannot lead trips for a club wihtout certification. This will be good for certified instructors because it will kill clubs altogether.
My wife has instructions never to sue anybody about a paddling accident, but when you've a dead husband and bills to pay, and someone say's "hey I can grab you a quarter million here" it's hard to resist.
Don’t worry Rick…
...that was one of my favorite parts of the original "Saturday Night" shows. Knowing who it came from, I took it in the intended spirit and laughed my butt off. ;-)
Now that you understand my intended meaning (thanks Flatpick), we're not so far apart in our views, afterall, are we?
However, I still see some some debate about training vs. assessing. It's the training that's valuable, as that's where the skills are learned. Some people can do it on their own, but others are better off with - or simply prefer - an instructor. Regardless of how one learns, I see no point in paying someone just to watch you and say "Good job, here's a piece of paper you can frame." In that regard, I think the ACA's system of only certifying coaches, not paddlers, makes more sense.
Perhaps there's value in certification if it motivates people to strive for it, but it's important to emphasize and understand that the real goal is the skills, not the certification. One can achieve the former without the latter, whether through formal training or not.
You’re missing my point
I realize that the BCU doesn’t restrict the type of paddle one can use during certification and that many people have passed the tests with GP’s. What I was getting at is that the required stroke techniques are designed for a Euro paddle and are not optimum for use with a GP. A good example of this is that the GP is designed to be slid in the hands and extended for some strokes, but that’s not allowed under the BCU guidelines. Some of the required strokes will probably never be used by a Greenland paddler once they pass the certification test. The program is simply too inflexible to be fully relevent for GP users. That’s what I meant in my previous post.
BTW, I’m not aware of any specific anti-GP bias by BCU coaches up this way.
Additionally, how can you think of us as “fascist” when over half the population of NH voted for Kerry (who’s much closer to Komunist than fascist) and elected a Democrat for governor (the last one was a disaster, but I guess some people never learn).
I think you get what you put into it
This is one of the more interesting threads to come up recently and I can’t stay out the fray. Having just gone through some of the BCU process, I have to say it made me a better paddler. I had a good experience with the instructor and found the training and assessing to be a challenge that I enjoyed. I tend to push myself more if I will be tested and definitely had a great time getting ready for the assessment on my own and with others during the training. I also met another fine local paddler in the process and have learned a lot from him as well.
Kieth, I think you’ve been very fortunate to get a lot of paddling time in with some exceptional paddlers and learn from them informally. However, if you didn’t love paddling and didn’t put the personal effort in it wouldn’t matter who you paddled with or what their certs were.
In my case, it seems that I’m introducing people to kayaking all the time and giving informal instruction. I though I would benefit from some instruction and be able to start others on the right track. Ultimately, as in many other endeavors, I think you get what you measure.
I’ll be continuing the training, but I don’t think I’ll have the stars tatooed on my forehead or painted on my boat. It’s not about bragging rights or being an almost 40 white male, its about being more involved in the sport I love and maybe someday passing on that love of the sport to others.
ahh
the blue state of NH. Much good it did the gentleman from Massachussetts. He still lost to the slow witted and slow walking texan by quite a bit.
Where in the bcu hand book does it prohibit hand sliding? I haven’t seen that? Do you have a URL?
If it does I did all kinds of hand sliding in my proficiency test and nobody said anything?
Maybe I am missing the point?
Glad You Jumped In…
the "fray" (which it really isn't because it's been a pretty good respectful discussion).
"benefit from some instruction and be able to start others on the right track. Ultimately, as in many other endeavors, I think you get what you measure."
I have to say that this is a very "western" approach -- the need to "measure" the skills and the man by some constructed yardstick. To some degree, it is can also be indicative of the desire of some to "have" something as quick as possible and "validated." In some of the "old ways" in eastern traditions, there are no such measuring sticks. Rather, there is a belief in "hard practice" and the integration of physical skills along with the mental and spiritual components. The learning curve happens on many fronts and is not seen as necessarily linear. There is also a belief that nothing is "static." Things change and one must learn to adapt and not just rely on something that has passed -- dead and gone. Ultimately, "markers" of where one had been are useless because the route is endless. All that is left is the "journey", or the practice as it were...
"It's not about bragging rights or being an almost 40 white male, its about being more involved in the sport I love and maybe someday passing on that love of the sport to others."
Good for you that it is not about "bragging rights", though by the very statement, it acknowledges that there are those who are seeking above all -- "bragging rights." :) Bragging rights can come in all forms -- from having the "stars", to having such and such a boat, to saying one has paddled with such and such, to being able say one ran this 90 foot drop, or having surfed a triple overhead in the "Pipeline." The validation of the self comes from the external validation of the "other."
The opposite end of those who brag are those who proclaim "indifference" to any such achievements and strive to stay in their familiar routes and endeavors. They do so not really because of trued indifference to challenge and achievement (self actualization) but because of their fear of the unknown and, yes, of failure. So they stay in their comfortable niches and do the same thing over and over again. It's striving for comfort and safety -- mental and physical. The problem is that nature and the world sometimes - actually, always -- conspire against that by throwing in a curve ball. The complacent is forced to rethink -- either retreat in bitterness or move ahead with courage and fortitude. Which ever way, we will have to face the world so long as we still breath.
Then there are those who are seeking a deeper perspective on themselves and find that it is at the "boundaries" of their experiences, that "true" self often emerges. It's often at the uncomfortable "edge", that one begins to understand one's hopes, fears, and aspirations among other things. It doesn't matter where this "edge" is on some external yardstick because though it may be well within the envelop of some other, it is still the "edge" for the experiencer. So, the "edge" could be just getting on the water, or leaning the boat, or surfing that first 1' wave, whatever... The person is working and learning at his/her edge. This is the quintessential journey and the practice. Everything outside of this person's moment on the edge, is tangential and irrelevant.
Finally, I don't think we "pass our love" to others. I think that either the individual has it or not. You can help facilitate the exploration but you're not crucial. That person will find a way no matter what.
Guess I am waxing philosophical this morning. :) But I agree with Keith, that this discussion is not just about paddling. Paddling is but one aspect of our lives. But our perspective on paddling is really and cannot be anything else but a reflection of how the individual holds a view of his/her world.
sing
Perhaps it’s just the locals…
…but the BCU instructors I’ve spoken with are sticklers for textbook form. Maybe your local guys are more accommodating to GP users?
BTW, Bush actually has a higher IQ than Kerry, by 3 or 4 points. If it wasn’t for the fact that so many expatriate MA residents now live up here, Kerry wouldn’t have won NH. It never ceases to amaze me that people will flee a state like MA to escape the taxes (among other things), then immediately try to re-create the same environment they just left. To them I say “GO HOME and take your politics with you!”.
loosing access
Please take a look at an article on American Whitewater’s site regarding loss of access due to boating mishaps.
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/archive/article/515/
The boating community may think that the risks we take are our personal responsibility but rights of access can extend well beyond personal domain. Remember when seat belts and helmets for bikers were just a matter of personal choice?
Discussions like this are valuable to a point, so what’s the next step? How does your/our voice get heard? Please support AW and the organizations in your neck of the woods who work on behalf of protecting our access rights.
Heidi
Must be part of the 12star training 
Waxing philisophical indeed. We are all different here. I don’t think I would have ever learned to roll without instruction, many people can and have. I have read dozens of kayaking texts and wouldn’t have picked up some of the finer points of what was being presented without some help on the water. I am very grateful to those that have taken the time to pass on their skills to me.
I can only speak from personal experience, but the fact that I was going to be assessed was good motivation for me. I needed to be pushed to work on my off side stuff. I wouldn’t have put as much time in or improved as much as I did without that motivation. I’m basically lazy I guess, and like success more than failure so still don’t work on my left side like I should.
Finally, I there are many valid points being made here, but I’m going to stick with my assumption that the BCU has a decent framework for skills progression. A lot of those knocking it may have, as Kieth stated, a fear of failure. I know it was more than I expected.
And your right about passing on the love of paddling, what I meant was that there are a bunch of kids around here that already have the love. From what I’ve seen, both the BCU and the ACA have good instructor development programs that we’ll all benefit from.
Oh my…
Do you and Scottb finally have some common ground?
We probably agree more often than not
...but when we disagree, we tend to VEHEMENTLY disagree. ;-)
It seems that most long-time residents of NH like our state the way it used to be, that is, conservative in most ways. It's the friggin' newbies that are screwing it up!