i’m getting a little blue in the face
here.
“I’m basing my comments on discussions with several GP users who’ve progressed through BCU Star program, all of whom felt it necessary to switch back to a Euro paddle for it because many of the required stokes were not as effective with a GP when they were forced to perform them in the BCU-prescribed manner.”
All of my above posts stated the exact opposite of what you just said. I’ll say it one more time: I used a traditional paddle to do my BCU 4 Star training and assessment and no one said anything about the paddle or made me re-do anything based on having a non-modern paddle.
So if this is the point of your argument about being anti-BCU then I guess from my point it’s moot, but if you want to ignore me and want to have some continuing beef with BCU Assessments I don’t think it’s fair to not expect people to correct you. Unless you’re bearing some grudge against some NH specific folks, and in that case maybe that should be handled outside of the board?..
Cost?
Swedge raises a good point - so I’ll make it agian in case it was lost on the sidelines.
What does all this cost?
The whole breakdown form zero to 5 star or whatever. Optional courses and Instructor certs too. Everything offered by both ACA and BCU.
Let’s see what we’re really talking about.
a good education
costs money.
We spend thousands and thousands on boats and kit.
Maybe spending good $$$ on EDU is the way to get a good education. Establishing a good standard makes sure the EDU you get is good.
steve
dollar figure?
a dollar figure is very hard to calculate.
Generally speaking courses that we do cost about $80-150 a day, depending on the venue, gear needed, travel time, etc.
$10-15 bucks an hour. Not bad considering what other professions charge.
FWIW- I’m not getting rich. But I am having fun and providing a worthwhile service. It isn’t about the $$$.
steve
Grand total and course listings
I want to see the whole thing. Mapped out with costs.
Is this all listed on ACA or BCU sites?
Is pricing standardized? If not, why not? A course is a course - if standardized as we are told these are. An ACA or BCU course should cost the same everywhere - or all we have are individuals doing what they want under the same flag.
I am not debating the value of education, and I’ll leave the quality debate to others as well. I just think it should be standardized and spelled out on the cost side so people can plan and see what they’re getting into - adn know they can continue on a path if they move around or want to take a section on vacation.
"Standardized Fee Structure…"
wouldn’t be feasible since you’re talking about private enterprises, operating in different regions, with different costs involved.
Think of private colleges… There is a range of costs… (though mostly all expensive! 
)
And, when you think of college (especially liberal arts), what did you really learn that is concrete and applicable? I think what one learns is a “way” to learn. With that, you get the “certification” that supposedly tells the world you know how to “think.” Now, that BS/BA degrees are so common, the real “achievers” must also have the MA/MS and PHD’s after their names to show that they can think even better than the rest.
Then you have guys like Einstein…
sing
you know, you’re right
goodness…
you want it ALL mapped out?
We’re working on it, at least in the PNW. I have a group of ACA and BCU instructors who are working on a standardized system that seems to work well here. in time this may become an nationwide standard, at least that’s what we are hoping for.
In short order I’ll post a news release. Right now I’m waiting for a couple key players to respond.
Sing’s totally right. The standardization of pricing is WAY to variable to put a standard amount on it. You have private lessons ($$$$+) all the way to clubs offering EDU (maybe FREE).
The important thing is the skills standard not the $$$.
steve
lets see
A Couple of New QCC-700s or a BCU rating.. I would rather be an UN-Rated paddler in a nice boat then a rated one with out a boat… and what skills would you use for non-standard boats such as Sots? To me it makes about as much sense as getting a MT-Bike rating for various trail difficulties!!! Don’t get me wrong those that get the ratings indeed have accomplished something, but for the regular person that just likes to get out and paddle I would think the price is a little steep. As you also have to factor in the week off to get certified.. Some of us do have a life besides paddling, now if it’s your profession then that’s a whole different matter!!!
EDU
Flatpick’s view towards education doesn’t surprise me. My sister in law’s neighbor has a son who is an instructor at Atlantic Kayak Tours. He was suggesting that my wife and I take yearly training.
OK so what are the concrete benefits ???
I am new to the whole it is good and necessary to have both
instructor and paddler certification ratings, etc. Could some rund down the concrete reasons why this will allegedly benefit us all (putting aside the considerable downside).
ACA/BCU Umbrella
Either it is an organization granting certifications or it isn’t.
If it’s a bunch of individual instructors in different regions (conditions too) and they all charge accordingly (knew I’d get this answer - but it ONLY makes sense from one side) then they should be granting their own unique certifications - NOT ACA OR BCU certs.
It is not like a bunch of private colleges, it is like one college with satellite campuses - that DO charge the same per credit hour for the SAME program.
ACA and BCU should set fee structures, and if instructors don’t like it, THEN they do their own thing at their own price.
So let’s see if I have this right:
They all charge differently,
They all teach differently,
They all teach in different conditions,
They all asses differently…
… and yet we are all supposed to believe these ratings mean anything?
Again, I’m not saying training isn’t useful, but I’m really beginning to question the validity of these certification programs. People training in different places in different ways at different costs does not sound like much of a standard at all.
Shame, as I would be interested and am at a good point to begin tackling more challenges, but perhaps the rebel path will suit me better…
Super Structure…
One mass uniformed society… Boy, that would not only turn me off but would scare me even more.
The reasons for different colleges, include different emphasis (even within a discipline), different student bodies, even differences in teaching approaches by the instructors within the same institution. If you make it through, than you get your degree. As long as the college is accredited, your degree is respected more or less by those want to see a degree… (more for Harvard, less for Sammy Joe’s Institute for Long distance Learning).
sing
You’re analogy is off
For your analogy to hold it would be like those who can go to Cambridge do, and those who can only afford or qualify to get into “Sammy Joe’s Institute for Long distance Learning” go there, but since both are accredited, both give the same quality of education and command the same respect. Right.
I can understand how you could look at the ACA/BCU as accrediting bodies, and different instructors as different schools they accredit (makes sense), but that just makes my point about the credentials granted not being all that equivalent at all.
It may be the only practical setup in such a small and fragmented sport - but it should be left to the subgroup who choose to use it and not be foisted upon the general paddling community for any reason. It should always remain and option for those who feel they need it professionally or others who just want some sort of prescribed path to follow. Fine - as an option only.
Would systems like this make it in surfing, skateboarding, Mt biking, motocross, X country skiing…?
You can get lessons in those, but is anyone going to tell you didn’t pass a level because you’re grip on the handle bars is not the prescribed style? You zigged when you should have zagged? Would anyone even want a star rating in other sports. Why should we? Rhetorical - don’t answer - I already know the answers, just finding the logic a bit circular of late.
Benefit the instructors and those who
seek to lord over us regular folks who just do not feel the need to be ‘certified’ to be doing what we love. If one is insecure they will search out leaders, though ratings will not suppress these insecurities.
Hey yeah, lets standardize paddling… that sounds perfect.
In our opinion;
True masters teach all they know and ask nothing in return,
I think we just had smoke blown
up our butts.
Mr. XXXXXX,
I received your email from the U. S. Coast Guard Boating Safety Website expressing your concerns over the possible certification requirements for recreational kayakers.
While we appreciate your assertion that the Coast Guard would better serve the paddling community in regards to operator certification, the fact is that the Coast Guard does not have the statutory authority to regulate recreational boat operator proficiency. That authority resides with the States.
The best place to voice your concerns and opinions is with the State Boating Law Administrators (BLA). The National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) is the national organization represented by all 56 states and territories of the United States. They are the body that approves courses for operator proficiency standards for recreational boats. I suggest you visit their website at www.nasbla.org . There you will find contact information for each State, as well as the NASBLA staff. The Education Committee is the body responsible for issues dealing with education standards. You can either start there, or you can contact the BLA in your home State.
I hope this information helps you. If I can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact me.
Regards,
W. Vann Burgess
Program Development Analyst
United States Coast Guard
Office of Boating Safety
2100 2nd Street SW
Washington, DC 20593-0001
Phone: (202) 267-6717
Fax: (202) 267-4285
Badges
It’s been highly interesting to read the discussions on certification of kayaking. We had(and still have) the same debate here in Denmark.
One variation of the theme is to introduce scout like badges. This summer my club announced a test for the ‘Eskimo needle’. One would have to demonstrate 10 rolls on the left and right side and a re-entry-and-roll to get the badge.
It was completely voluntarily and really just for fun. But still around 10 paddlers started to seriously practice for the test. It was interesting how some pretty experienced paddlers who had only learned to roll on one side now practiced their offside roll and at some point mastered it. Apparently a small badge was all it took.
For next year I’m considering to propose we introduce an ‘Eskimo needle II’. Requirements should probably be something like 10 seconds of side sculling in each side and a bit more. It shouldn’t be too hard, as the goal should be manageable for the majority.
Just a more playful version of the certification game…
/Peter
The benefits include
A more efficient forward stroke, Climbing the learning curve much faster, eliminating bad habits before they become ingrained, having an international credential so that if you need to rent a kayak in wales or Scotland you can just do it, having a better teacher than you can usually get for free, unless Sanjay, Sing, Foster, BNystrom, Jed, or somebody else is in a generous mood.
The best paddler treats their instructor like a good martial arts teacher, without the ritual but with lots of respect. The paddling teacher is, without a doubt, teaching you skills that your life will depend upon if you choose to become an advanced sea or whitewater paddler.
I sometimes run skill sessions for beginners in my club at no fee. The first thing I tell them is to go to teachers X,Y, or J and take a lesson or two, then to come and practice what they have learned with me. Then go paddle on trips, then take more lessons, then come practice, then take more trips, then come teach me something. I have averaged spending $200/year for kayaking instruction and it has been well worth it.
Getting a digest of experienced views on the sea local weather patterns pluses and minuses of techniques and gear, having a real expert tweak your roll etc.
The Elder brethren and sistern of my favorite paddling club have given me more than I can ever give away.
Take a deep breath
I understand exactly what you said and that’s fine as far as it goes. What I’m relaying is what I’ve heard from other paddlers working with different instructors who apparently don’t assess in the same manner as those you dealt with. That may be the crux of the issue, the inconsistency in assessment from one instructor to the next. It simply highlights the flaws in paddler certification. If you’re going to assess people’s paddling ability, it should be based on the goals of boat control and such, not on conforming to a textbook method. If you had enlightened instructors/assessors, consider yourself lucky.
more all the time
the traditional BCU standard of a few years ago had little room for variation, including GP use. I did a number of BCU programs with either a euro or GP and showed I was talented in both, which was acceptable. sort of. 
Today the standard is still quite strong tho tool use is NOT a big issue. if it works and you can justify it through effeciency and safety you are G2G. At least with the coaches I know.
The ACA is looking strongly at programs that include both, again not putting the actual tool in issue, but looking at a holistic view of the paddler’s talents/ needs.
Both groups realize the popularity of the GP and are willing to accept it’s use in everyday paddling.
heck, the BCU ran a full page add of me with a GP in surf on the cover of the BCU yearbook last year! go figure.
steve