I paid $1250 for my Aquanaut LV RM,
$3,000 for thermal? You can buy almost any composite boat for $3,000 if you shop for sale or clearance prices. Bill
There is a material that is tougher
and lighter than Kevlar. Ballistics are prooving such, and it is promising for use in kayaks, but there are some things that need to be perfected. Unlike Kevlar it is not hydroscopic, and it’s tough. Like Kevlar it needs coring or combining with other materials to gain stiffness.
Eddyline Carbonlite
– Last Updated: May-17-10 11:28 AM EST –
I'm impressed with what Eddyline is doing in plastics. I'm not a big fan of their industrial designs but very impressed with their Carbonlite boats, - fit and finish. When I first saw them, I couldn't believe they did that with plastic and I think that's where all the kayaks will end up.
If you go here...
http://www.eddyline.com/technology-innovation
They even have a picture of a kayaker on top with a helmet, cutting into some big white waves and rocks just like the British adult boats that everyone goes nuts over.
I always thought Eddyline was a excellent glass manufacturer with excellent fit and finish and attention to detail with some ugly, not-cool designs and old farty hatches.
Yes, I thought the same thing, but
– Last Updated: May-17-10 12:05 PM EST –
let's be honest. The thermoformed British-style kayaks you are currently referring to are new to the market.
Their listed MSRP of close to $3000 is roughly $500-700 less than a comparable composite boats. That is not exactly chump change. Yes, you can usually get used composite boats for quite a bit less than $3k, but is that a fair comparison?
Composite kayaks have been around for a while. Like cars their value drops quite a bit once you 'drive them off the show room floor'. I suspect that once the new thermoformed boats (Rockpool TCC and Valley) have been on the market for a few years you will be able to score a used or demo model at a cost significantly less than MSRP. Currently it might be interesting to do a cost comparison (ratio) between the used price/MSRP of lets say Eddyline kayaks versus typical composite models.
In the end the market will decide.
I am a flatwater guy
even still I would rather take my QCC on rough water than my Necky. (yes, I do own one)
My main problem with the Necky is in the bow design. It is quite flared at the bow, and goes back into a fairly full midsection. They called it something like a “dolphin bow”. The result was that in addition to pushing a lot of water around the front of the boat, their bow design also lifted the boat up out of the water slightly when you got it moving. With all the overhang on the front, it meant the waterline got much shorter once you got it moving, plus your energy was being wasted lifting the boat with every stroke.
Seemed like it could be a lot better IMO
I am excited to see the new Rockpool.
I have liked Eddyline since I bought my first Nighthawk, good company and ownership. I always expected a lower price. I bought my Nighthawk for $2795 and sold it for $1,800 about nine months later. I don’t think a composite boat would have fetched any more in terms of the percentage below msrp of the used sale price. My boat was used hard in my ownership and it looked great when I sold it, and there were zero quality issues. The oval rear hatch requires king kong to put it back on temps below 60 degrees, but it didn’t leak. The new Fathom with a lower backdeck is a really fine boat, if they drop the foredeck they will likely please more people. I am very interested in seeing where the thermal formed boats are headed in terms of construction and public acceptance. Bill
Polycarbon construction
– Last Updated: May-17-10 3:04 PM EST –
I imagine that quality control and uniform qualities of the carbonlite plastic is consistent throughout the boat, but where does this material fall in the pecking order for durability and impact resistance to whatever rises from beneath the water? I've seen the hit em with a hammer videos, but have read little to nothing of what owners have discovered about this material.
Not polycarbonate…
Vinylester better than epoxy?
Maybe better if you consider the time your boat could spend on your rack in the summer when it gets above 90 or 95.
Even after all the boats I prefer plane old polyethylene. Cheap, slips right over rocks, tough, and very durable. cobra and ocean kayaks have made some models that would give composite makers a run for their money in the weight department too.
Not polycarbonate?
As a good choice for a quality constructed boat that can take abuse? Well built traditional glass-resin layup a superior quality of construction in comparison?
Are there new materials and construction techniques on the horizon?
I think he means the material is not
polcarbonate. It is referred to as Carbonlite, which is Eddylines name for the plastic they use. I believe it somehow has a use of Carbon, which is not to say that it has any carbon fiber. Polycarbonate I think is used in the manufacture of optical lenses and would be tremendously expensive for use in a watercraft. This is my take on the post. Bill
Thanks
– Last Updated: May-18-10 11:10 AM EST –
I am familiar with this plastic and know of its' use in optical lenses. Just didn't know where it fell in terms of quality construction for kayaks and toughness compared to other materials. The videos of hitting it with a hammer gives you the impression that it will take hard hits on the water, but sometimes these things don't always translate that way in real life.
With the vast array of materials beyond glass and resin that would theoretically work for building a boat, you have to wonder if better quality construction is on the horizon and didn't know if this was an example of that possibility.
Thermal formed sleeper in $$$ and # # #
Recently I had a chance to test paddle the Hurricane Tracer 165 sea kayak. I believe this to be a sleeper (not widely recognized) kayak. Although I only had a chance to paddle it on flat water, it surprised me mainly in it’s maneuverability, yet it did have a good turn of speed (5.5mph +). Yet at 6ft. 6in. and a 22.5 beam, this isn’t a speedster to start with. My next hope is to get a chance to test paddle the Tracer in some chop on the big pond, here is where I feel this sleeper might excel.
http://www.hurricaneaquasports.com/tracer-165.html
As far as hull strength goes I feel it was comparable, if not possibly superior to FG hull designs. One thing for sure was the sheen on the outer surface. I would have to say it surpasses the sheen of a gel coat, and appears more resistant to wear.
Anyway getting to the point of this thread, this thermoformed (not roto-molded) kayak with a skeg weighs in at 46#. The list price “new” at a few shops on the net I have found as being between $1,400 - $1,700. Oddly enough Hurricane is a U.S. manufacturer out of North Carolina. I could only imagine if this or comparable thermo formed kayaks were to be made in places like China what the price drop could be.
Eddyline has the Fathom which is comparable in length and beam and probably comparable material and labor cost to the Hurricane Tracer 165. Yet When I see a price of $2,669 my mind just says “profit margin”. I’m sure Eddyline can justify this in some justification of superior/quality/craftsmanship/design. Yet I’m on the fence about that.
After my test paddle of the Hurricane Tracer 165, I had to ask myself “why is this kayak such a sleeper in the market at this price ?”. The only answer I could come up with is in the view of the dealership. A kayak dealer selling a majority of glass, carbon, Kevlar boat designs would be hard pressed to put the tracer in the same ranks at this price. This black sheep could easily take away from their profit margins from the glass, carbon and Kevlar boats.
Anyway for now I see the Tracer 165 at best left to stand in the dealer of of roto-molded kayaks where it’s value does not cut into dealer profit margins.
Just my $0.02 after taxes.
"…than my Necky. (yes, I do own one)"
You have a Chatham 16 and do not find it to your liking in clapitos and lumpy seas (which are the conditions for which it was designed)?
QCC’s are very well designed boats but the long waterline and lesser rocker act very differently in challenging conditions than boats most often thought of as being designed for such. I’ve found that a longer flatter waterline feels as if it is getting knocked around a bit more than a more rockered boat. Often boats such as the Chatham 16, Romany, Avocet, etc… seem less affected and easier to control in confused seas and rock gardens.
Different strokes…
A few replies to the last few posts.
The hammer test is difficult to qualify in terms of how this translates into real world kayaking mishaps. I can’t recall the last time I was hit by a hammer when paddling. In my opinion, Hurricane does not manufacture a boat anywhere near the equal of Eddyline, this is my opinion only please. Thermal formed boats have an entirely different failure mode than composite and RM. If this failure mode is one that a given paddler can “live” with, then it may be a great material for them. Where and how I paddle, Eddyline and all the kayaks it manufactures for others would be suitable for all of my non-winter Great Lakes paddling. Good stiffness, wear resistance, weight, and appearance are all to be expected. I am interested to see if the thicker material used in the Rockpool boats will make them more resistant to failure/fracture. In temperatures over 50 degrees, I believe that anything that will seriously damage an Eddyline will also seriously damage a composite boat. What level of concern this damage raises will vary with the circumstances such as location, seas, temperature, and needed repair.
Not all composite is the same and not all thermalformed is the same, but the two certainly have almost nothing in common except for the application.
Bill
I’ve applauded QCC many times here
even though a QCC would not be my choice for the paddling “I” do, just as a CH 16 is a silly flat water boat. This is a case of a guy judging a product in the wrong context. But that may make him feel better?
Glad you’re happy with the QCC as it’s an excellent product.
Hybrid might be my choice…
… when I win Powerball and setup shop:
Glass(or CF/S blend)/epoxy infused hulls, composite/compatible gunnels with some structural cross bracing/deck attachment points (in addition to bulkheads) similar to canoe construction, TF decks and hatch covers, mechanical hull/deck connection.
The infusion process produces superior hulls that are light AND can take a beating. They will last a long time, and are reasonably easy to maintain/repair - but are costly in time and materials. Over-engineered if anything, and overkill for decks outside their weight savings. Hybrid approach keep these materials/processes where they are most effective, and best applied in terms of end use AND effective part production (decks are generally more complicated shapes).
The TF decks can be thinner lighter than TF hulls and the potential failure modes/field repair drawbacks of those materials are not such an issue topside as below.
TF tools can have inserts/be modified relatively easily to offer different deck (hatch/cockpit/etc) configurations. Decks could even be done in sections to allow easier installation and repair/replacement/modification options (different cockpits/hatches, even SOT conversions) - as well as allowing smaller/cheaper/easier to handle/maintain tooling.
Might be nice to see a TF surf kayak hit the market too - if it could price right somewhere between composite and RM. Smaller platform might be a good place to experiment with some unique internal structural elements for strength/assembly.
Think minimalist SOF with rigid TF “skin” deck and hull components - or even a flexible but tough PU skin deck so the whole thing can fold flat for rack/storage…
Ah, it feels nice to dream again, but then the ringing phone snaps me back to reality…
Until the Powerball win, anyone hiring Industrial Designer/Test Paddler/eccentrics? Any similarly eccentric multi-millionaire backers out there to bankroll me? L Really like to be working/playing on stuff that gets me excited alongside like minded, no - like interested people (prefer varied ideas/backgrounds to group-think).
Materials vary
I went to an interesting workshop with Laurence Goheegan who makes Nadgee kayaks. He pulled out samples of different materials from different manufactures. He had chopped strand, woven fibre, kevlar, carbon, carbon/kevlar. He pulled on the samples and cut them with shears to illustrate the differences between the good stuff and the crud. Very enlightening. This is a place where you really depend on the expertise and integrity of the manufacturer to produce quality kayaks.
I was left with the impression that it is more productive to focus on the skill and QC of the builder than worrying about the particular materials too much.
Lightweight Kayaks
Warren Light Craft builds flawlessly-constructed, 28-Lb 15.5-ft kayaks in carbon fiber with waterlines longer than many 16-ft kayaks. The 28-lbs is the complete weight of the kayak, not just the hull. Their 18-ft kayak weighs 36-lbs. It is entirely possible to build light, strong kayaks - but they are expensive.
Also need to be careful with "strong"
What does that mean? There are many variables. You could built a very light stiff, nive paddling touring boat at 30 lbs! But bump it on a rocky beach and it dimples, How much impact will a boat need to withstand, etc. A coastal touring, expedition kayak will see far more abuse than a typical QCC or Warren Lightcraft. Different customer, different use.
Designers have to design around these constraints.
I once paddled a 30 lb. Chatham 16 made with Carbon Kevlar co-weave on either side of a thin foam divinycell core. Amazingly light and super stiff! Boat had dents all over it’s hull after a few days of paddling in a manner for which the kayak was designed.
Imagine the warranty claims!
For a lightweight day tourer or race hull this would have been terrific.