Kayak for whitewater and flat water

How much does Perception pay you
for advertising swiftys? In the end it’s all personal choice, but gees- have ya’ tried anything else?

Dancing Mouse…
"Sing, that little boat does everything you describe: lightweight (37lbs.) Tracks straight as an arrow on flatwater and turns on a dime in WW. I’ve had mine in Class II and believe me when I say, it eddies in and out better than my WW boat, surfs like a pro in the smallest or largest waves, it’s very stable and just plain FUN!!! "



I dunno what to say to that, except my own experience doesn’t support it. I 've sat in a “swifty” like boat – a (?) kewoee – and the thing was cavernous for me and doesn’t lend itself to good control. It doesn’t paddle fast – not surprising – and gets worst when it’s windy. Would I recommend against the boat? Not necessarily. My sister has a couple on the small lake they have a cottage on. Perfectly fine for families and guests to jump into and get on the water. Everyone smiles afterwards. Perfect compromise for the situation. Perfect into boat for someone totally new to the sport as well.



For me, however, may be I am just jaundiced from paddling for awhile. If I am on flat water or ocean, I want a longer boat that will cruise and track with more ease. If I am on ww, I want a boat that will turn and catch the micro eddies, “play” as I want to do in waves and holes, and frankly is easier to roll when I flup up as I am prone to do.



It comes to down to a matter of one’s expectations for a boat or a paddling venue. It is also a matter of one’s skill as well. I am sure EJ or Ken Whiting can do more with a Swifty in rapids than I can do with any of my white water boats. Given that, I still wouldn’t want to handicap myself with a swifty on white water.



sing

subject?
i have to admit that I’m a total noob to kayaking. But, i love doing stuff on lakes and rivers. I like canoes ok.



One thing i was thinking. I’m going down a river and come across some fairly strong rapids. What do i do? I really wouldnt want to have to get out and hike around.



My idea of a fun day trip:

10-15 miles of scenic, beautiful landscape with the occasional rapids for fun. In some places you really cant find a nice 15 mile stretch without SOME rapids.



Now if i have a WW boat, am i going to love the rapids but feel like a snail on those long flat stretches? Or with a longer touring yak am i going to be risking my life every time i come across a rapid lol.



I guess this is my problem.



Maybe speed isn’t essential, but i know how annoying it is when everyone is passing you. I definetly want good tracking… nothing worse than zig zagging your way down stream.



There just has to be something out there. If it means sacrificing some speed it might be worth it.

You guys know what your doing. What kind of things do you do? and with what kind of kayak?

Well…

– Last Updated: Jul-13-04 4:52 PM EST –

If you're going down a class II and up, most folks will be in a whitewater boat. So, relative speed between the group ain't really a problem. On flat stretches, I tend to "play" on whatever I am working on -- squirts, sculling, rolling, draws, etc. while I am floating downstream with the current. If I am really in a hurry, I can paddle my white water boat pretty straight -- this too can be something for someone to work on.

If you run into rapids that your gut says - "DON'T DO IT!" - then don't. Portage around that feature. Most ww folks totally respect someone setting a limitation with their comfort level. Always better safe than sorry... I've seen folks get pretty bruised swimming down a class II river and I have seen one dislocated shoulder.

Now, if you're running mostly class I with some straight forward class II (which some folks will go ahead and call a class II run when it really isn't much of one), then you can probably do with a very short touring or rec boat. (13 mile section of the Androscoggin is such a run.) In this case, you'll have more speed and packing ability. But, in the rapids, pick your line early and run straight through. When in doubt on rapids -- Paddle, paddle, paddle, paddle! As long as a blade is in the water, you'll be more stable.

sing

Back in June
my wife and I took our Pungo’s [100 & 120]down the New River in VA. We put in approximately 12 miles up river from Foster Falls. Along the way we encountered some class 1, 2, and 3’s, the 3’s were right at Foster Falls, and did rather well all things considered. We had never kayaked white water before so I would have to say that our kayaks made up for some of our inexperience. You definitely would want to have the spray skirts for both since the cock pits are so large. The 100 did better than the 120 but the 120 is a little faster on flat water.

testing one out
I probly should try out a short touring yak and a WW one and just see what i like better.



I’m not really planning on taking any major rapids… probly class I with some minor class II. As i said before my experience with rapids is limited. What i consider class III may actually be class II.



Someone suggested inflatables… any comments on that?

For just tripping
I would recommend a short to med. length rec. boat. Pungo, swifty, loon ect. say 9-13 ft. Easy to turn slow on flat water but tracks straight enough. If you wanna play in the rapids WW style , then think about a WW boat. Just my 2 cents. I trip down rivers almost exclusively. Class I usually with occasional class II.

A Mighty Diverse River, The "New"
http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publishers/menasha/pad_newr.htm



I would love to kayak this with a creeker, a light sleeping bag and a pack rod!



sing

Go back to NC and run the New near
West Jefferson. I did 19 miles in one day paddling solo in a whitewater open canoe. Plenty of smallmouth bass fishing up there, and you can run it in almost any sort of boat, including a Swifty.



I have done the New River Gorge also, but it was rather difficult, not my idea of a cruising and fishing stream.

No such kayak
A whitewater kayak is required to be highly maneuverable and therefore the shorter the better.

Some WW kayaks are shorter than 8 ft.

A touring kayak is required to offer good speed and track well, so the longer the better. Some of these kayaks can reach 20 ft.

No reasonable compromise is possible unless you’re willing to take a 10-12 ft recreational kayak just for the “experience” and once you become a better paddler get 2 specialized kayaks - one for WW and the second for touring.

It’s not the manufacturers

– Last Updated: Jul-18-04 8:34 PM EST –

Kayak and canoe manufacturers have thoroughly explored and exploited the envelope of the kayak/canoe technology.
You can't blame them for the limitations of the canoe/kayak concept itself.
If such a versatile kayak/canoe was possible to make it is likely to assume there would be manufacturers that would offer it.

As for the weight and price parameters - that doesn't look impossible.

why not just buy 2 boats?
most of us have many boats ,just don’t think about the money. "every day spent on the water means you live another day longer"the joy you’ll get from them is more than worth it. have fun.

Go See Farenheit 911
The opportunity to see the videotape of GWs reaction (or should I say lack of it) when told on 9/11 to the fact that the US is under attack should not be missed.

always a compromise
Whatever boat you get, it will either perform better on flatwater or better on ww, but will probably not be ideal on either.



I got a used Prijon Chopper hoping to find a good compromise to do rivers which include flat water, and up to class II rapids. So far, it performs great in the class II, and mediocre on the flat water. Whenever I took my paddle out of the water on the flats, the boat would spin. In fact, my friends in the 12’ Loons easily outpaced my 9’8" Chopper. However, if you’re not in a hurry, it’s still quite manageable, and a comfortable ride. And you get a lot of practice perfecting your stroke, trying to keep that thing going straight! But I definately prefer it in the Class II over the Loons, so overall I am happy with the compromise.

You need to get out and try some
The comments in the responses here have ranged all over the place. I myself have paddled a 16.5’ sea kayak (CD Squall) in Class II and enjoyed it.



But…maybe I was just “lucky.” Or…maybe the Class II sections here are wider than the ones where you would paddle. I don’t have enough experience, nor do I know a whit about your locale, so this is all pretty loosey-goosey.



Can you rent any kayaks in your area? You said you were a newbie, so I think this would be a good idea regardless of what kind of water you intend to paddle.

its about comprimising,
my friends and i fish out of our yaks and are continually running c-2s. we mostly use dagger blackwaters and perception sierras. its all about doing both types of water ; try fishing all day out of a ww boat…mikey

tuff desicion
I really would rather get one yak and just compomise. I just dont see myself switching boats all the time and learning 2 different types. I’m fairly lazy.

I was looking at Prijon’s Yukon Expedition. I know its really long, but from all the reviews I’ve read, It looks like a great kayak. A lot of people have said they have easily taken it on class IV’s. It’s 14.5 ft. long but its rock hard. People call it the hummer of kayaking. From what I’ve heard it sounds like a boat I would have a lot of fun with.

Has anyone had experience with this that could comment?

Apparently Not A “Tuff Decision…”

– Last Updated: Jul-22-04 9:47 AM EST –

if you really believe this:

"A lot of people have said they have easily taken it on class IV's. It's 14.5 ft. long but its rock hard. People call it the hummer of kayaking. From what I've heard it sounds like a boat I would have a lot of fun with."

I'd like to know who these people are 'cause they must be like... "advanced experts." :D None of the experts I know around these here parts run class IVs with a 14.5 semi touring boat. Gosh darn, maybe you should post this in boatertalk.com where the white water folks hang and see how many of them have done class IVs with a 14.5' boat.

Hey, if you want to buy the Prijon, that's cool because it probably is a decent boat for what it's intended. Just don't want read about you someday getting pinned trying to run that boat down a class II/III/IV river.

BTW, here's a straightforward class IV - the Rapid River in ME. I would love to see that 14.5' prijon go down this run.

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/rivers/id/881/

sing

Maybe it was just wishful thinking…
Yeah I know your right.

I’m not gonna spend that much on a kayak anyway. At least not right now.

I’ll probly end up with a small rec boat. Something cheap that can handle WW without any major risk involved. I think this post was really about exploring my options. But i found… there arn’t any really.



I’ve decided speed it not needed. A slow boat is ok with me. One thing that would be good tho is some storage space for overnight or longer day trip. Not a lot.



The dagger Blackwaters look like they might be good. I know my ideas have been all over the place. But now I think I’m ready to have realistic opinions. Instead of searching for this Do-it-All Wonder boat.



So what boats would you recomend in this area. Boats like the blackwaters. Small w/ WW capabilites with a small amount of storage.



note- If the wanting storage is still unrealistic then tell me and i’ll drop that too.

maybe
take a look at some of the inflatables. Storage, stability and won’t ncessarily be s replication of effort should you decide later on to get a faster flatwater boat.



The inflatable could always be your WW boat and the toss in the trunk to have with you for candid moments on the water.



Best of luck,

Steve