Kayak kits - choosing
Thanks Grayhawk,
Actually I have been emailing back and forth with the Pygmy people for months. They have been very informative and very helpful. Believe it or not, I was going to build the Osprey Triple, until my wife (gotta love her!) convinced me we had no room to build, store or cartop the Triple boat - that she would be willing to go with having her own boat and we would thus be able to meet our size limitations. So, I did this switch with Pygmy almost at the ordering point and they were very understanding - but I am wondering if we “fall through the cracks” as far as finding the right boats for us. My last question to them was wondering if they had an off-the-catalogue “Osprey 14” kit or “Osprey 13 High Volume” kit, or something. Again, we are smaller people looking for a river-capable sea boat, where stability matches performance and size requirements. (Note how wordy I am: I can’t believe how patient Pygmy has been!)
$.03
a couple of thoughts, “coastal” usually implies surf launches/landing and has the same potential challenges as whitewater. It’s one thing to launch in protected water and enter a coastal area where there’s no breaking waves, it’s another to launch through 2’ waves.
My $.02 is that putting a light 5’2" woman into a 12’x30" rec. kayak is asking for problems in any breeze, it’s not a good match at all.
If stability is paramount then sure, get the 10’ and 12’ boats for you and her. But DON"T think of coastal paddling.
How do you define “performance”? The 15’ Osprey standard is hard to turn and wouldn’t make a good rec. kayak in narrow quarters, for a short, light woman the AT 14 could as it’s maneuverable.
My experience as a kayak instructor and being around paddlers is that men overemphasize their skill level and women under emphasize theirs. Women are already lower cg than most men, a light woman in a 14 AT is pretty stable. The coaming is smaller than the Loon,but if you’re looking for “performance” then at some point leaning the kayak is a way to get it to perform. Not much leaning will happen with a 5’2" 125lb woman in a 30" wide rec. boat unless it’s something like a Necky Manitou 13.
You at 175lbs can do things in a 10’ rec. kayak that she will not be able to do. If you are at all exposed to strong breezes she’ll be sliding sideways in a shallow rec. kayak.
Of the various characteristics that define “performance” the ability to handle waves, low wetted area, and maneuverability are likely ones. Very High primary stability is not an attribute associated with “performance”. A 5’2" woman in a 30" wide rec. kayak is EXTREMELY stable to such a degree that tracking in winds or efficiency will be sacrificed.
Just to repeat, a 12’x30" rec. kayak is a bad fit for a short, light woman if there’s any strong breeze and it’s marginal from an ergonic standpoint for her torso to clear the gunnels for good paddling techniquie without a raised seat. Putting her in a WD12 would be like putting you in a 19Queen Charlotte XL. It would make no sense.
seeking rec. kayak stability
the Osprey 13 would be a bit snug for her, the AT14 is a good size for you IF you were seeking "sea kayaks", but you're not.
But it sounds like you want the kind of primary stability that comes with rec. boats with little need to learn how to roll or risk tipping over in average conditions,,ie. waves under one foot.
For HER the AT14 would be VERY stable,,but not Loon138, WoodDuck 10' stability.
This is one of those dividing lines between your height/weight and hers regarding primary stability.
If you get a chance to paddle a Manitou 13 it'll get you into handling attributes that describe "performance" for a rec. kayak. I'm guessing that you in a Manitou13 would be similar to her in an AT14.
My suggestion would be an AT14 for her and a WD 10 for you. Height,weight and anatomy(CG) between you and her are that signficant.
Don't force yourself to buy a kit because of a sale. You're going to spend close to $1000 for the total cost EACH and spend 3-6months building it.
Wouldn't it be funny to realize in the beginning of summer that you made two nice boats, one of which was too big for your wife?
Check this out
http://www.shearwater-boats.com/eider.html
eek, more choices!
Suggestion #3
Start a WD10 kit.
Get/rent a Necky Manitou 13.
THEN decide if you want to make a WD12 for you and she gets the WD10 OR make an AT14 for her and you discover the AT14 coaming isn’t that snug for HER.
I’d like to see that
John Harris surf launching a 12’x30" rec. kayak.
it is way stable
I’ve seen 100-125lb women in it and it’s very stable, much more than a CD Slipstream
Wife Etc
Re Pygmy boats on rivers. Can't speak to that. The time I was in a Pygmy was on a good sized lake. If by rivers you mean moving water, generally a lake boat goes from being somewhat less satisfactory than a WW boat to really really so as the class increases, especially as you add the factor of rocks.
But to the crux - I am getting the impression that your wife has expressed some major discomfort about being "trapped" should the boat capsize. This is a very typical response. The reaction to look for an extremely stable boat and go for a bigger cockpit are what most people do.
However, and only you can judge this, if she is really really uncomfortable you may want to try something before you invest time and energy in building a boat for her. Get her into anything cheap that has a big cockpit and practice falling out of boats with her. No skirt to start. Unfortunately a hot summer day is the best reason to do this, but you may be able to hook up with pool sessions targeted for beginners. And no performance stress - just get in there with her and fall out of boats. Add a loose nylon skirt that'll fall off the coaming only after she is having fun with the first part.
The really conservative point of view is that you ultimately can't avoid a capsize, tho' for some that may take a while. If that happens and your wife has not gotten at least a little mentally by her fear, at the least you may not get her into a boat again. At the worst she could gasp or become otherwise very afraid. You don't really want either of these to happen.
Also, if she gets by initial fears, you can get her into a boat that will have useful contact points. If her cockpit is too large, you'll be paddling along while she is flailing behind you trying to get a good stroke off because she is swimming in the cockpit. I'm not kidding - she really will have a hard time making the boat move or handling wind. You have no reason to be aware of this right now because you are in a tandem, so if she is paddling a little less strongly it isn't noticeable. It will be when she is in her own boat, and over time will be a huge disincentive.
One more idea - a fellow paddler made sure his wife's stich and glue boat, when she was ready for him to build one, had really pretty in-lays. Keep that in mind.
Kayak kits - choosing
Thanks Lee,
That’s worth a whole lot more than $.03! More and more, it’s looking like the WD 12 is not a good idea - also given that I intend to build the same kits at the same time for efficiency. As I said somewhere else, I asked Pygmy if they have an “off-catalogue” kit for an “Osprey 15” or “Osprey 13 High Volume,” but the A.T. 14 was suggested. Too tight in the coaming for us, I think, or I would go for it. I really appreciate your feedback - especially being a paddling instructor. Another instructor warned elsewhere to be careful to avoid having too big/long of a boat for our sizes, and that’s a major theme in this effort.
Kayak kits - choosing
I surf-launched my 9’ Emotion Charger SOT . . . and I am still trying to get used to the higher C.G. while riding the waves. It’s really fun - kind of like riding a bucking bronco (I guess) - bouncing around on the swells! I wouldn’t want to do it for a long paddling excursion though; it would wear me out! Next time, I’ll try my new thigh straps.
Kayak kits - choosing
Thanks Melissa,
I can squeeze enough space in my office to build up to a smaller sea kayak (14-16’)and using some type of ceiling mounted hoists, can store them (my office is a 24’ geodesic dome)there until I build storage outside. We are getting closer to a solution. There’s then the issue of having a smaller, river-capable, sea kayak suited to our sizes. My original plans were the P. Osprey Std., finished with graphite below the water line, but I wonder if its length will preclude river maneuverability.
Kayak kits - choosing
Thanks again, Lee . . .
Here’s a confession or two: First, I have been planning to get two of the same model, to build them together for ease and efficiency. We would be squeezed with the small coaming on the A.T 14, or I would go for it - certainly for her. (I am squeezed in the O.T. with it’s 14 1/2" wide coaming.) My original plan was the Osprey Standard for both of us, but I began to wonder if it would be too long.
Your feedback, along with everybody else’s has been extremely valuable . . . at least I’m learning what mistakes not to make, and maybe I’ll back right into a solution. I have also gotten some very useful off-the-net emails witn caveats on building and design.
Finally, I can just imagine how I would feel with my wife paddling circles around me in her A.T. 14, waiting for me to get underway in the Duck! No way! The Duck idea originated because she would have a way (I thought) to keep up with me, without flipping in the process. I have to re-think whether it’s practical to get two of the same model, but I doubt I could keep up with her in the Duck 12 for long, if she could fit (hip-squeeze) in the AT 14. (She’ll kill me if she ever sees this string.)
Kayak kits - choosing
Maybe I should fabricate a “dummy” coaming the dimensions of the AT 14 and check us both on it. (What an incentive to keep our weight off!)
Kayak kits - choosing
Thanks Celia,
You guys are great! More very useful, on target information. Yes, wanting her enthusiasm to grow in something we enjoy together - without it being snuffed out by an early capsize - is one of my major considerations. I had been planning to rent a couple similar boats next week, but the CLC sale encouraged me to try to decide sooner. All this useful feedback encourages me to wait and do what you are suggesting. It would be worth it to spend a little more money and get what really works for us.
building the same for efficiency
it won’t be. Building two at the same time is easy to do but building two of the same size makes as much sense as getting the same size kayak or same size bicycle. It’s possible but there will be compromises for the person in the edge of the fit.
Building two at the same time is perfectly doable, it just requires a two car garage instead of a one car garage size space.
All this talk made me…
…take my Tern14 out for a spin this evening. Although at 5’11" and 185lbs. I’m a little over its target weight it is still a sweet paddling boat…
I found the boat!
http://www.wenonah.com/products/template/product_detail.php?IID=194&SID=a916dab428d31e76f484ca3d1f69bd40
Get one of those AND build the WD10!
Yeah, but can it surf…
probably sideways
for a little while
or
consider mockup to make the AT14 coaming wider.
Me thinks you have a misunderstanding about the limitations in a kayak. The hip braces do not have to be the same width as the coaming, they can be mounted further under the deck. Some folks have made bigger or smaller cockpits. The process of building one kit might make the solution for the next one apparent.
Kayak kits - choosing
What a surprise, in terms of cost, for a kevlar boat, but I want to build one . . . two of something! If I were into considering something else, it would be the 14’ Shearwater Widgeon (http://www.shearwater-boats.com/widgeon.html ) but I am not familiar with their boats and little is shown online of the boat in terms of elevation views and performance; no info on hatch availability, either - so the lack of information on the web site leaves me wondering how much information would be supplied to build the boat. It does appear to be right in the ball park and the price can’t be beat - but I know little of the company.