700 bucks Current Designs Extreme
Interesting article on the subject by Nick Schade.
I’ve added his synopsis for the TLDR folks:
After years of watching people paddle all sorts of kayaks, I have come to the conclusion that for most paddlers 14’ of length is really all they need. I paddle long boats a lot as well from 17’ sea kayak to 20’+ surf skis. It takes a lot of strength, stamina and physical fitness to gain the speed potential advantages that longer boats offer. Short boats do tend to be wider which increases drag, but if you can find a reasonably narrow boat in the 14’ range, chances are that will be as fast as you will be comfortable paddling. Constantly seeking a longer boat to go faster will not do you any good if you don’t also spend the time to train and increase your fitness
Are Longer Kayaks Really Faster? | Guillemot Kayaks
Tim
Reaffirms a lot of what has been posted over the years, that length is just one factor that impacts speed. But, it won’t stop those seeking to reduce it to THE ONE “magical” factor to make up for shortcomings in other areas.
sing
I can offer my personal observations on this.
My '70s Clearwater kayak is 32 lb, 14 foot long with a 24 inch beam and no rocker. I typically cruised around on this at somewhere around 5 mph on 12 mile trips. When cruising I could plainly see that with every stroke the bow rose up and fell back again. I interpret this as some of my energy was wasted climbing my own bow wave, and that clearly means I was limited by hull speed.
I kept that in mind when shopping for a new boat. My Epic 18X is 42 lbs, 18 foot long with a 22 inch beam and no rocker. My cruising speed is the same. I do not see any sign of the bow bobbing up and down, nor do I see much of a bow wave for it to bob up and down on.
That difference in bow wave height is important because the bow wave is lost energy. The cross sectional profile of the Clearwater is wider and flatter than the Epics, which is rounder and has a deeper draft. I suspect that the Epic’s bow wave wouldn’t be much higher if it were only 14 feet long. The Epic’s more efficient hull shape has a bigger effect on my speed than length does.
My recommendation: if speed is your primary consideration, look for a very tippy round-bottomed boat in the 14 foot range with no rocker, narrow as you can handle.
Thanks again for all the great info and advice. I totally get that everything is a trade off (Aerospace Engineer in a past life) I’m just trying to get a feel what one might gain or lose with different choices.
I’m off, ferry gods willing, to Vancouver Island to demo some boats. My lack of experience means I will mostly be focusing on fit and comfort. Should be fun and I love Vancouver Island.
I’m attaching a link to a previous thread on the same subject.
Lots of interesting info…note the one study that says a Sitka ST at under 16 feet is the most efficient boat at all speeds for a 140 pound paddler.
If I think about that highly rockered 15 footer you’re considering and using my canoe experience I think it should cruise just fine because it has good length and it’s narrow. In the canoe world rocker makes the boat feel easier to accelerate and you may like that feeling…I sometimes cover the most miles in my 15’ Swift Osprey because it’s so effortless even if a touch slower than my fastest canoes.
My canoes aren’t slow (for canoes) and I can generally outrun kayaks that aren’t sea kayaks and I’d expect that 15’ x 21" play boat to be able to pass me pretty easily.The devil is in the details but I think you’ll be just fine touring in that play boat.
So surf skis are not 14’ because of?
K1 kayaks are limited to 5.2 meters because of?
My CD Extreme kayaks are not as fast as my CD Expedition kayak with a rounder bottom. It’s definitely more tippy but the hills are near exactly in weight, Width and length are the same and similar bow and stern. Higher deck and bow on the Expedition but the glide, speed, and acceleration is easily felt.
Yeah, the “no rocker” recommendation is not valid for waves. I have buried the Clearwater’s bow in rapids and had waves whack me in the chest. If you are comparing two boats though, look at your bow wave. The difference on mine is huge.
The OP is a new kayaker; the recommendation also does not apply to Olympic paddlers who go way faster than 5 mph. I also prioritize the capacity to store camping gear, something that most paddlers don’t care about, and I will never buy a boat without a day hatch.
And then folks will say that ultimate speed only works if you can provide enough power and need to go that speed. Otherwise the extra length is just drag and wasted effort.<<<
Longer boats are typically also narrower so the “drag” factor is a red herring in most cases. You might be able to paddle a 17’ kayak much more efficiently than a 14’ kayak as a result. Most times when I put a person in a longer boat they are amazed at how much easier it is to paddle and how much more glide it has. Remember, longer boats generally float higher in the water. Of course a lot of other factors come into play, but don’t buy into the “longer kayaks are slower” nonsense. It just isn’t true in most cases.
If you’re new to kayaking and looking for advice, read Archimedes . . . Read Archimedes! That will take the mystery out of “buoyancy”, “displacement” and “wetted surface”. No need to reinvent the concept:
An object floats if it displaces an equal weight of water. To match the load carrying capacity of a short, fat, shallow draft boat, a narrower boat that weighs the same must be made longer or deeper to carry the same load. LENGTH “enables” the boat to reach higher speeds before it creates the bow wave and trough explained by the “hull speed” concept. The important point from the hull speed chart is how length increases the speed “potential” of the boat, not how fast the boat will go. Only that it becomes exponentially more difficult to power through the building bow wave and trough, as the boat approaches the listed hull speed.
Water will not compress. Therefore, a wider boat MUST push the displaced water further in order to pass through. Then that displaced water returns as the boat passes. Advanced specialty hull designs have found ways to minimize the bow wave and trough that hampers traditional boat hull designs.
Short boats also climb wave peaks and plunge into the trough of the next wave (with the bulk of that wave washing over the short deck and into the cockpit. Long boats are less disrupted by waves because they can better bridge the wave peaks.
If there is more wetted surface in a longer hull, the effect is only minor and at slow speeds; by the time boats reach cruising speed, the advantage favors the longer boat.
The greatest impact on speed potential is boat length, with other influence being hull form and underwater profile, width, and weight (a “typical” 12 ft boat weighs less that a 14 ft boat which weighs less than a 17 ft boat, unless the longer boat is made of a lighter composite. If a 12 ft boat weighs 54 lbs and a 17 ft boat weighs 68 lbs, the 17 ft boat displaces 24 more lbs of water; if the 17 ft boat weighs 40 lbs or 25 lbs, each will displace 14 lbs or 29 lbs less water).
Of the boats mentioned above, a 17 ft by 20 inch wide boat weighing 25 lbs would have less wetted surface than ANY of those other boats, and it would be faster, but here’s the news flash: if you can only sustain speeds of 2.5 mph, in a 12 ft boat, you may be able to go a few tenths of an mph faster in a narrower, longer boat (especially a lighter model), but you will not realize significantly higher sustained speed. On the other hand, If you can sustain 4.8 or 5.1 mph in a 12 ft boat, it’s time to step up to a 14 ft. If you’re looking for greater speed potential, just step up to a lighter, narrow 17 ft boat and you should be able to manage 6.0 mph before long.
Sustaining 6 mph not happening for sea kayak.
By sustained speed, I mean more than just a max peak. Craig_S managed to avg 5.9 mph in a 24 inch wide 175 Tsunami over a 3 miles course. When I was in my early 60s, I could sustain 6.0 mph paddling my 175 over a 1/3 mile distance from a bridge to the entrance to a marina, and even gained on boats in the no wake zones. Maybe it was 5.8 mph or 6.2mph or 1/4 miles rather than 1/3 mile. I believe otherwise and disagree.
You become confused by trying to interprete only part of my posts. Read the entire post, especially the “if” part.
Current ? Wind?
Max sprint speed in the boats you mentioned 17-6" x 25" boat is?
I’ve been through that and you apparently didn’t read any of it. It’s not relevant anyway, because I can no longer match those speeds. That doesn’t mean others can’t.
It’s relevant if you claim average of 6 mph sprint speed is? 4-5-6-7 mph is not linear in power required.
I’ve been through all of that and we dont agree!
I cant figure out how you calculate speed if you don’t trust a GPS.
I said that I don’t trust a gps where?
So you say amount of power required is linear?