@adkjoe said:
IMO I believe kayaks are over priced… I purchased a new Hornbeck canoe in 2015 for $1500+ and I bought a used Old Town Cayuga 146 W/rudder in 2016 for $750 in near perfect condition.
So, you are saying that because a plastic kayak that’s built by the thousands and mostly by a machine, cost you half as much when purchased used as a brand-new canoe that is built in very small numbers and entirely by hand, is your proof that new boats are over-priced? You might want to re-think some of the details there.
I think the earlier comment about how new fads can’t sustain themselves indefinitely was the most accurate of all. In any case, it’s been discussed here plenty of times how selling paddle craft is hardly a good way to get rich
Companies that don’t make a decent profit usually fail to exist. That said I think they make a decent or respectable profit. Trick would be adjusting your cost if sales volumes change.
Not always… Some just love to make paddlecraft. Some of those low volume “companies” are one or two man shops. Overpriced? You are thinking mass market and there are a lot of paddlecraft that are not mass market made… I know of at least three builders of high end boats that are not making a killing. The big factors are environmental regulations , insurance, taxes , SS etc…
You have a lot of stereotyping going on. Older does not mean more sedentary. With retirement comes more time. Sometimes less money. If its not broke we hang on to it… We kayaked Lake Superior last summer( and almost all the summers in the last ten years) and used over 20 year old fiberglass and kevlar boats.
15-20 miles in 5-6 hours is a respectable clip but among paddle people not unheard of… I think that the rec people do have second thoughts.
I would hate to think of the alternative: paddlecraft designed with a shorter and shorter shelf life in mind like digital cameras and phones.
Companies that don’t make a decent profit usually fail to exist. That said I think they make a decent or respectable profit. Trick would be adjusting your cost if sales volumes change.
There is a huge difference between charging enough to stay in business and selling for a price that is unjustifiably high. I see that as an especially relevant point when the person I replied to listed a low-volume builder like Hornbeck as part of his supporting evidence that new boats are over-priced. I’d like to see a person add up all the costs of making composite boats and housing the equipment when making such an allegation, rather using his gut feelings about the pain of initial purchase as “evidence”.
Being in business 40+ years I have a good idea on expenses. If any business is making a killing others rush into the business. No one wants to run a business for a days pay. Small shop with owner working brings up the price because they usually will charge more for their time than an employee. Hence higher pricing. Also buying material in volume is another savings.
Some of us prefer Toyotas and Fords to Lincolns and Lexi, but enjoy individually crafted boats.
Price is always a factor for most of us, but function is very important.
Function wise, there isn’t much difference in cars but a huge difference between Pelicans and Current Design.
Margins are relatively small for kayaks and canoes, compares with most other consumer goods. One problem with them (for the businesses that make them, anyway) is that they last for decades and a lot of people buy them but rarely use them so there is a huge aftermarket for them. Kayaks don’t depreciate or wear out like cars do, especially if they are well cared for.
@Gs96c599@aol.com said:
Small shop with owner working brings up the price because they usually will charge more for their time than an employee. Hence higher pricing. Also buying material in volume is another savings.
Isn’t it more a factor of the number of boats made than how much the guy doing the labor gets paid? For any given number of boats made, they will NOT be any cheaper to build by an employee making a low hourly wage, simply because the proprietor isn’t going to reduce his own earnings enough to actually lower the overall production cost. Even if he pays the laborer the least possible amount, total cost of production will be higher than if he continued to do that work himself, for that particular level of production. The way that additional employees can reduce the cost of the product is by increasing production volume.
You speak of buying in volume to reduce cost, but if what someone said here once is true, cost of materials is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the cost of building a mold, and you need that mold no matter how few or how many boats you make in a year.
cost of products to build boats is a not a drop in the bucket. The cost of materials is significant. Sure quantity reduces cost for many things including the mold. Cost will not be higher per item if a company has employees. If I can train someone to build the same kayak for 20 bucks an hour vs. say 80 for the owner and he has 4 employees the cost is reduced,
@willowleaf said:
Margins are relatively small for kayaks and canoes, compares with most other consumer goods. One problem with them (for the businesses that make them, anyway) is that they last for decades and a lot of people buy them but rarely use them so there is a huge aftermarket for them. Kayaks don’t depreciate or wear out like cars do, especially if they are well cared for.
I doubt the profits at a place like Current Designs are at the bottom compared to most other consumer goods. The market was booming before the economic crash for high end kayaks. Now it is just a reality of many not having the hobby cash for a higher end purchased kayak in the 3-4,000 dollars.
Your right kayaks are not like cars as they don’t change much and no odometer. How many ads do I see for 10+ year old kayak and they say paddled 4 times or even twice.
I have 4 Current Designs kayaks
Libra XT new 5,000 plus tax I paid 900 and put less than 200 into it. At ten feet you would have no clue how old it is. The kayak is exactly the same today except for the pedals.
CD Solstice GT I paid 1,800 two years old probably used 5 times like new condition with gear and boat I got about 4,300 plus tax.
CD Extreme HV I paid 800 just like a new Nomad except pedals. Condition with a buff and new deck lines looks like new at 10 feet.
CD Extreme not HV I paid 300 and put 500 in material plus labor. Looks like new all updated or should I say restored.
If I bought them all new it would be near 17,000 plus sales tax.
I think the price of good sea kayak new and the amount of disposable income for most is slipping away.
I am guessing many people don’t want to put the physical effort into doing it any more. Society is getting lazier in my opinion. If I tell someone I kayak and they are from the area they think I go 2-3 miles. If I say I go from my house in town A to town B they think it is insane.
May be it was a fad to some extend not sure as I only have been in it since 2008.
CD rep said at NJ Paddle Sport show at one time (3-4 years ago ? ) they could hardly make high end boats fast enough and now they can hardly sell many. Everyone going for shorter cheaper kayaks. I went to see the redesigned Solstice line and they didn’t even have one on display just shorter cheaper ones and the Ignite model make believe surf ski.
@Gs96c599@aol.com said:
cost of products to build boats is a not a drop in the bucket. The cost of materials is significant. Sure quantity reduces cost for many things including the mold. Cost will not be higher per item if a company has employees. If I can train someone to build the same kayak for 20 bucks an hour vs. say 80 for the owner and he has 4 employees the cost is reduced,
Yes, and this implies an increase in production, right? Because what proprietor would take on four additional workers to do what he could otherwise do by himself? What you said before was worded in a way that compared the direct trade-off between the owner doing the work or an employee, with no implied increase in production, and because of that I wasn’t able to agree. I agree completely in this case, where an increase in production is the only thing that allows the scenario to make any sense.
Oh, it seems to be a bit disingenuous to imply that the worker’s cost to the company is equal to his hourly wage ($20/hour in your example), when a common rule of thumb says it’s closer to twice that amount (my employer has lots of other costs associated with each worker besides their paychecks, and total cost works out to be about double). Still, that overstatement of savings doesn’t actually change the point being made by either of us in this case. It’s just an observation.
I tried finding a source to verify what I thought I remembered about the cost of a production mold for canoes, but didn’t have much luck. I do remember being shocked at the cost, and have a very vague recollection that it was more than I paid for my house. Okay, I bought my house 25 years ago, and admittedly I got a great deal, but still, I would think that would cover an awful lot of building supplies…
The Seminole Canoe and Kayak club in Jacksonville is about to turn 90 years old. In the beginning it was very popular. They had canoe regattas. Sailing canoes were popular and weekend races were normal events. Canoe races often include the 6 man canoes. Then came the post war years of the 50s and the advent of fiberglass outboard power boats. Canoe races started taking a back seat to power boats. A few years ago kayaks were popular. The club changed its name to include kayaks. The club grew. But now it is not. The canoeists at the club are generally in their 50s to 80s. Many don’t paddle any more but they come for the food. The sport needs the youngsters.
I tried finding a source to verify what I thought I remembered about the cost of a production mold for canoes, but didn’t have much luck. I do remember being shocked at the cost, and have a very vague recollection that it was more than I paid for my house. Okay, I bought my house 25 years ago, and admittedly I got a great deal, but still, I would think that would cover an awful lot of building supplies…
It is likely more labor cost intensive than material cost. Especially if certain boat design features require the mold be in multiple bolt together parts.
@Gs96c599@aol.com said:
I think material is probably 30% of the cost. Molds are cheaper to build now than 20 years ago.
No… And molds have to be refurbished. I think you need to talk to some small builders. Vacuum infusion pumps cost in excess of $75,000. Rolls of Kevlar and glass and carbon fiber are a pittance relative to investing in machinery and molds… Molds do wear out Molds break… Talk to the owner of Placid Boatworks…
Heating cooling and atmosphere dust control are some other big ticket items Resins are picky when they like to cure.
You are totally ignoring taxes and fixed expenses.
I raced offshore boats for many years, I have purchased and raced Douglas Marine boats otherwise know as Skaters. I have seen what is required to construct them. Materials are not a pittance and may be not 30% in the construction. Plugs for molds can now be carved up with a computer guided machine much faster and cheaper than years ago for a plug to make a car body out of composites. Pumps to make kayaks I doubt are even remotely near 75 grand.