Yep with one caveat
I think science will say that rocker is faster than a straight keel with a humanoid as a propulsion source 
To Peter’s point I recently chatted with a top notch female paddler from California. BCU 5 star for those that care. More than that, she is a delightful person and great boater as well as strong.
In chatting about boats she concluded that it came down to feel for her. She could go as fast in the commonly labelled slow boat, but just didn’t like it’s feel. She preferred the other model from the same company. My preference was the opposite, as I like loose boats.
Actual difference in speed between the two was negligable, but they feel very different.
Unfortunately though low powered paddlers are often done a disservice by well meaning, but mis-informed sales people who put them in poorly matched boats.
Godzila
Here is a link to some of the Godzila work www.cyberiad.net/library/kayaks/jwsprint/jwsprint.htm
I think the argument about rocker boils down to design speed, the greater the speed the less rocker seem to be desirable (all other variable being equal). However this needs to be balanced against length v’s width. The Godzila work was looking at resistance at a certain design speed and with certain dimension criteria. I think on longer hulls like racing ski’s and longer sea kayaks the benifit of rocker (especially at the stern) to reduce wetted surface becomes more apparent. Otherwise apart from handling like a dog the extra resistance of surface drag on a non rockered 21’ surf ski/kayak would prevent all but super-humans overcoming this and benefiting from the gains of reduced form drag.
Certainly some rocker is very desirable from a “Fun” prospective
On another note we are splitting hairs when it comes to theoretical absolute efficiency. The best rule of thumb measure in determining a kayaks speed potential is its length to width ratio, measured at the water line. There is some good information on the Sound Rowers site including a listing of some hundred odd boats and comparisons between their findings and drag figures published by sea kayaker magazine.
Agree with that…
Rocker
>This is even true in top level racing, the top nelo
ICF kayaks have loads of rocker,
yet science says the fastest design is straight keeled
It’s true that some ICF racers have rocker, but they certainly don’t have any overhangs.
To quote Stuer Kayaks:
http://www.struerkajak.com/?p=1_2&m=54
“During the paddling it is especially noticed whether a kayak has much or little rocker. If there is too little, it will turn badly and feel heavy at the average speed of the distance, even though start and spurt may be satisfactory. More rocker is the only means to reduce the wetted surface so much that the average speed is increased. Because of the wave resistance the kayak should at the same time be made exactly so narrow at the middle that the correct prismatic coefficient is maintained. A very heavy rocker will give an advantage at the turns at 10.000 metres, but especially light paddlers will feel the kayak rock under them during the strokes.”
My take:
There are pros and cons for rocker in a racing kayak. Rockered racing kayaks have less stability. and reacts better/faster to fine adjustment to your course when drafting. As the bow often is only centimeters away from your opponents paddle, this is important. However it also takes less for a rockered kayak to get out of course in the first place.
/Peter
salty
I think you continue to make an important point re: buying for what a salesperon tells you - with no context or as a selling point - as opposed to how something performs for you personally. You’re right and that’s why people considering a new boat purchase are advised by those here to demo.
One of the boats on my list when I ended up with my greenlander was a riot aura. For me personally there were several characteristics that just made me prefer the greenlander. Now, it’s nice to know it goes fast, but what really matters is that it feels right to me and fits my criteria closely enough.
When you demo boats before buying it makes the decision making so much easier.
All Seakayaks are fast and stable…
...if you believe the marketing.
If you want a good all around sea kayak and also want to easily cruise at 5.5 - 6.5 mph for 2 - 3 hours at a time in most ocean conditions there are only a few choices. The most common being the QCC700, 600, new 10X and the Epic 18, 16 Endurance or new X series.
I suggest learning how to use a wing paddle combined with a full-time rudder in one of the boats listed above (or one of the other more obscure models that pretty much look similar). Most paddlers will double their average speed and triple their range with this type of set up. Add some good downwind runs when you can jump from wind waves to sea waves and you will be regularly surfing at speeds of 10 - 15 mph.
There's a whole new world of sea kayak performance just an equipment decision away from where 99% of most folks end up. I gotta believe there is a much higher percentage of paddlers that have the attitude and goal to paddle as fast and as far in a few hours as possible with the right equipment. This is while staying in reasonably stable easy to handle equipment.
You know who you are. You have a history in sports whether you ran track or x-country in high school or college or perhaps you have got into bike riding, training hard and buy the best bikes you can afford. Or maybe you are an intermediate to expert skier with a goal to continuously improve your technique and fitness. If you have this attitude and you buy the typical sea kayak that most people buy, then you will not paddle up to the level of your attitude.
Go with a performance sea kayak like listed above with a rudder, learn to use a wing paddle properly and you will soon be flying past most paddlers on your way to a daily adventure that most paddlers and posters here on P.net don't even imagine is possible.
By the way, do not trust the advice of anyone who says that you can expect an average paddling speed of less than 3.5 mph. There are many of those "experts" here on P.net, in your local shop, in your local club and even teaching paddling classes who think to average 2 - 3.5 mph is a reasonable goal. They are the same ones who will recommend you buy an elf shoe shaped kayak and a bunch of accesories to tuck into the bungie.
Agree here also
Envyabull, I agree with your comments and that is what frustrates me with people who talk speed differences among what are essentially slow boats, many of which have waterlines 2’ shorter than their LOA. Now if playing along the coast and in rock gardens is the driver, a lot of said elf shoe boats are great. But, to your point, if speed is your goal, don’t mess about. Get a dedicated fast boat, develop a good stroke, wing etc…
I say the same about kayak surfing…bypass the WW slow puck and get a dedicated surf kayak with fins. I’ve enjoyed this thread very much, as it reflects for me a growing knowledge in the kayak marketplace…that in turn will lead to more creativity in product development and more risk taking… All good stuff.
Now I hope that my Swift Caspian Sea
(QCC 400X) grows up to be a QCC 600X. Thanks for that great list of boats.
3.5 mph
Whenever I’ve read that around here it’s in the context of describing a typical weekend group average paddling speed, and is meant to reassure a prospective boat buyer that most anything that can be called a touring or sea kayak will not keep them from being able to keep up with the group, given a basic level of paddling ability.
That’s not quite the same as saying there’s no reason to aspire to working up to sustaining speeds faster than that, when out on your own or with a group that’s really trying to get somewhere as fast as possible.
As to the rest of your message, it’s all good. Just so people know 5.5-6.5 mph sustained for hours won’t be “easy” in any boat without actual training, as in multiple hours multiple times a week, for the majority of months of the year.
If that’s not what you’re into, the list of boats you might be happy with is a lot bigger than just those.
I paddle at most once a week 3-4 hours for about five months of the year. It takes at least two months each season before I feel like I’m putting any power into the boat. Not a pretty picture for going fast.
Mike
thanks for the flipside
I also found the remark “if you easily want to criuse at 5.5 to 6.5 mph” a bit disingenuous. And salesman-sounding.
Interesting comments, but problematic
So if I buy running shoes do I have to run, can’t I just jog? If I buy an elf shoe can I go work for Santa? On the way to the north pole I would like to run some rock gardens. The stretch between Sitka and Cross Sound is really nice, what will I take, the elf shoe or the running shoe? Both have assetts, but I think the elf shoe is more appropriate for me. If Santa didn’t give me any time off to run Cape Bingham or whoop it up in the Inian islands race, then maybe there is justification for something faster than the Explorer.
Paddlers are more diverse than the boats manufacturers put out. Some couldn’t care less about racing, scenerey watchers they are. Some fly by and you never really get a good look at them. Some are burning with desire to run around bumpy whitewater and land on beaches only they can get on. It’s all good to me.
Dogmaticus
Faster or easier?
I guess that I have paddled boats that could sustain 6-6.5 mph for endless hours. But I can’t.
I prefer my turney elf shoe that paddles very efficiently and easily around 5 mph.
5.5 to 6.5 mph
As a weekend warrior I can average 5mph over 3-4 hours (mostly flattish water course). Not killer by any means, but a solid effort for me. I’m not dead after, usually feel pretty good, but definitely feel worked and done paddling for the day.
Going with a “faster” boat and staying at my present weight/fitness would not likely buy me any significant speed. Maybe a couple tenths (mostly from better stroke mechanics if narrower), and maybe not if it’s harder to handle and/or has more wetted surface.
Going to wing/rudder might buy me some speed, but to do so would require spending a lot of time with the wing and building some different muscle (aka “training”). Right now, the wing and I don’t get along to well.
If I dropped 50 lbs and trained a bit (even just some moderate cross training) I think that would go to around 6 pretty easily (even without wing and rudder).
Training just a bit more seriously (adding more regular on-water time) and using wing/rudder could get me over 6 consistently.
Once there though, I suspect I’d migrate more to ski/race kayak paddling - as my QCC has a bit more beam and less than optimal seating/leg position for decent form at higher stroke rates.
As I’ve said elsewhere - 700’s really a general purpose sea kayak - and mine’s currently outfitted more like a Brit in the cockpit - and I’m just an average (short fat middle aged guy) casual/weekend paddler - so taken altogether a 5mph average over 3-4 hours ain’t all that bad. I’m just not sure I’m willing to settle for that, but also not all that driven to move beyond it either…
Whatever direction I go, the kayak is the smaller concern - but still important. I demoed some rather awesome Brit boats this weekend - a couple of the newer LV models which I really liked - but do not want as I would not be happy giving up the speed. 2.5’ less LWL is very noticeable. If playing in tidal races were my thing it would be different (and I’d be seriously looking at a Nordkapp LV) - but for distance crusing I’d go nuts with the snugger fit (rotation?) and hitting the wall at lower speeds (I don’t feel the wall in my 700, just my lack of power).
Different horses for…
turney elf shoe
Well, a sweet one it is at that. Thanks for the demo. Fun kayak! Would be a blast in more textured stuff, and should be good for training and assesments too. I minor seat tweak for my thigh fit under the braces and it would pretty much be perfect. Playfulness is addictive.
Felt quick (and certainly nimble), not fast, but perceptions can be misleading. Should have brought my GPS. You say you sustain 5 in that, over distance? Well, you are pushing a lot less water than I am in it. Makes alot of difference.
Elf Shoe…
On one long group paddle did a three mile crossing into light winds with a Sirius and a Redfish Return alongside. The Returns’ GPS read 4.8 to 5.1 all the way (that’s at my wall). We weren’t the lead boats but not far behind. I could run a little faster in the Bou but unless I’m looking at the numbers I can’t tell.
BTW: Brazil gave me a great surf lesson in the LV the other day.
Glad this has sparked some discussion
Interesting comments. Thanks.
I guess my point is that there is a difference in speed among boats…slight in most cases, but it does exist.
However, some boats for whatever reason just feel fast on the water (GP). I guess that is ultimately what I was looking for and am happy with my GP due to its fast feeling despite its slower speed than my previous boat. Actuall speed is less important to me than the feeling of speed on the water. That feel was what I was after all the time.
You can’t really determine whether a boat will feel fast or not until you paddle it. This feeling of speed may or may not coincide with ACTUAL speed on the water.
I have owned about 7 different boats in the last two years and paddled quite a few more, and I always paddle with a GPS. I think I have at least a reasonable ability to judge the speed of a boat on the water, but was duped by the fact that the GP was not as fast as it felt. Very strange and puzzling to me.
I am intrigued by what would cause a boat to feel faster than it is, or another to feel slower than it actually is and have made some guesses as to what may cause this. My assessment of this “perceived speed” is independent of water conditions and is an overall assessment of the boat in various conditions (yes, certain water conditions make the boat feel like it is going faster than it is…like when paddling into waves etc).
I still think it has a lot to do with the livliness of the boat’s hull and the amount of effort required at the boat’s max practical speed. Those of us who like to paddle hard probably will intuitively maintain the boat at about the point of diminishing marginal returns for speed vs. effort. This will occur at different speeds for different boats with a different amount of effort.
My Avocet probably starts to hit the wall about the same speed as the GP, but with more paddling effort required. I think that this combined with the less lively hull results in a feeling of going slower than in the GP. This will also result in less mileage covered (due to fatigue) if paddled all day.
Yes, there are much faster boats out there like the QCC and Epic, etc. I know those boats will go fast and probably feel just as fast, if not faster. However, as many have said, it’s all about trade-offs. For me personally (no offense to the members of the QCC club) I just don’t like a boat like that. I like going fast, but I also like to practice more advanced manuevers on the water and want a sweet feeling boat on the water that can do more than just go fast…and a rudder is out of the question for me.
For me paddling is ultimately a sport of “feel” That’s why I love it! I love the feeling of gliding across the water whether going straight or carving a smooth turn and I love the feeling of the intimite interaction of the hull and the water in conditions. The choice of a boat for me is ultimately determined by what provides the mix of characteristics and trade-offs that provide the feeling I am looking for. The GP is not perfect, but for now it provides a good combination of trade-offs for me.
Many would wonder why someone would spend so much time talking about boat designs, etc. For me this is part of the sport. Paddlign different boats and analyzying their characteristics etc has really taught me a lot about how boat’s interact with the water and has helped me to become a more knowledgable and better paddler in my opinion. It has also helped me to refine my understanding of what is really important about the sport for me.
Matt
5.5 mph is easy/6.5 mph takes some work
I am a salesman, but I don’t sell sea kayaks. I was not being disingenuouus saying that 5.5 - 6.5 mph is easy with the right equipment and technique. I honestly belive this because I live it. I can do 5.5+ mph for a couple hours right now and I haven’t paddled since last September. Give me til August and when I am fit and 6.5 mph is possible. Equipment and technique is more critical than fitness level.
I am basing this statement on my own experience with a QCC700. When I switched to a full-time rudder and learned how to use a wing paddle properly, my perfomance level increased dramatically. The QCC700 has the capability to allow these speeds, but it was the change to full time rudder and wing paddle that had the biggest impact.
Fortunately I ignored all the “experts” who shun rudders and went with what I saw the best perfomance paddlers in the world using: full time rudders and wing paddles. It took me about three years of paddling before I realized most of the British influenced advice out there was not suited for my paddling goals.
If you have a competitive attitude or are an over achiever in athletics then you are probably also one of these people. You tend to buy the best athletic equipment and learn how to use it properly. If you have the performance attitude then you need to forget all the Britsh influence and look to South Africa, Australia and Hawaii for inspration.
If this is you then I am here to tell you that 6+ mph average speeds in a relatively stable sea kayak is easy to attain. The biggest gains are from choosing the right equipment and learning the right technique. Once again, equipment and technique is much more critical than your fitness level.
Anyone who does not belive this level of paddling is possible at the recreational level has been listening to the advice of folks who also do not believe it.
so tell me this
when in the LookshaII I feel faster than when in the QCC700 but everything i’ve read says the QCC700 is the faster of the two…
not that i’m in this for speed-not at all-just like different kayaks on different days.
I’ve never GPSed them.
My point exactly…
It may very well be that the the Looksha II is slower than the QCC 700 as per all the hyro data suggests…but it may just feel faster on the water.
That is exactly what I am describing here. My Aquanaut is definitely faster than my GP, but for whatever reason the GP feels SIGNIFICANTLY faster on the water…but it’t not.
Ultimately it’s that feeling of speed that I am after so I don’t really care all that much that it’s actually slower in reality.
Matt
L
Don’t GPS it, Some boats simply feel fast even though they are slow, kind of like riding in an old VW Bug, the thing sounds and FEELS like its doing 120 MPH when its actually doing 55!! Now go ride in one of the new Cadillac’s, its cruising down the high way and glance down at the speeedo and Wow your doing 120!! Or personally for me when riding my XR motorcycle with the throttle pinned I know I am doing at least 150MPH!! Now when I am on my DL1000 just twisting the wrist slightly, easily yields triple digit speeds even though I feels like I am just poking along…