my ‘sniping’ was based on
JackL’s splitting hairs between a ‘tow line’ and a ‘line to tow’. And now I am a little confused that he doesn’t think a line used to tow becomes a tow line.
He used what he had at the time and it worked. I never implied he should leave some one behind. I think it was a great idea to create an impromptu tow line, even if JackL insists on calling it a ‘line to tow’.
That sounds like a great tow setup…
…that does what I’ve been talking about. Quick release from the cockpit. Why do you defend a stern to bow when you have the system you have and the knowledge you have?
ok Joe
Jay. Understand that even those who are not BCU / ACA certified can drown. Yes, much to your dislike ( for whatever reason ) there is a method researched and proven to work. SO, why not learn it and use it?
I do agree
I own a tow belt etc. and have trained in towing and variations.
You borrow someone’s kayak and pfd. etc and go paddling and you have to tow someone in with an injured shoulder. What do you do. 1 ft waves, 3/4 mile out.
JackL
– Last Updated: Aug-01-08 2:16 PM EST –
"I know there are tow belts and various means of towing, but my advice for you or any other kayaker is to keep about a twenty foot length of line in a handy place on your boat.
It not only serves as a safety device, but comes in handy for tying your boat to a dock, tree or whahtever."
My reading of your statement is that a person can carry a 20' length of line as minimalist alternative to a tow line "serves as a safety device". Which is true in some benign conditions, but for conditions where speed of deployment and release are critical the advice could be misleading for those not familiar with the conditions it's use was possible.
I took a class where the instructor said "bring a 25-50' length of line for a tow rope", which we then utilized for making tow set ups in choppy water of S.F. Bay. A 20' lenth of line tied around a coaming will leave about 5' to tie on the other guys boat once you figure in the length needed to tie around the coaming with quick release half hitches, length to the stern and knot on the other guys bow. Tying stern to bow is definately not a good idea as tower has no means to release the line and the towed boat will screw with steering badly.
I agree with you 100% that having spare line around is a good idea. I like the idea of a long painter that can be released easily for another boater to grap onto as well as be released from the cockpit. The other piece of line I like having is a 10' loop of 1/4"line stuffed into a pfd pocket for a sling or misc. uses.
communication
methinks JackL is a little loose on details but his spririt is along the line of “take it easy, do what works”
The 20’ line didn’t give enough length to tow from the coaming and the conditions were such that the length and method of attachment didn’t prevent the tow from being successful. So the important details are “do what works with what you got!”
If I was paddling out in 3’ waves I wouldn’t think of a 20’, or 50’, length of line as a reason to leave the tow belt in the car or a reason not to get one.
except
that hyenas don’t deleet each others posts like someone just did one of mine—oh well it is p-net and if we don’t like the way the answers to our posts go, we just delete them Wish I could do that in real life sometimes:)
I was there
– Last Updated: Aug-01-08 3:30 PM EST –
And I have been reading this with increasing annoyance. A line was used that probably does quadruple duty as a painter/back up deck line, ridge line for a tarp, and or a line to sink a six pack to get it nice and cool for the campsite for all I know. The important thing is that there was a LINE available (call it whatever the hell you want) that was used to help an individual who was having a hard time geting back in those conditions. I am ashamed to say that I did not have a tow belt on and I always have one on. why I didn't on this trip is still a mystery to me but it is a very valuable lesson learned and i will not be caught without one at least in the day hatch ever again. suffice it to say that jackL was instrumental in bringing my friend back to shore with me hovering nearby feeling pretty damned useless.
I think it is a testament to Jacks resourcefulness and the ability to get it done. At the end of the day the person who needed help got help.
Paul
Paul, I’ve got no problem with the…
…incident you talked about. Jackl found a way to deal with it and that’s great. Was there a safer way? Perhaps. My issue is with Jackl reccomending that same method to the op (not the first time) which is a much different story. This post is supposed to be about advice to the op. When someone starts giving advice to the op that is not safe, I believe it important to discuss that advice and call is what it is. If that is an annoyance to someone, so be it.
I apologize.
I deleted two of mine and unfortunately took out yours also.
I didn’t mean to take out yours, but unfortunately the way the string works if a person deletes their post it takers out any that are under it.
So please accept my apology
JackL
aha so you’re the culprit
what are you doing on pnet when you should be paddling the coast of Maine, while you have the chance?
Paul, you stayed with the group
– Last Updated: Aug-01-08 11:44 PM EST –
As I remember it, you were paddling back and forth keeping tabs on everyone, while I had already broken off from everyone else long before the assistance was needed. I was doing well just to keep my kayak into the wind and get through it.
Felt bad about it when the rest of you got back and I saw the tow and heard about the hatch issues. I would have been of little help that day anyway as i also had no tow rig (but probably had 50' of line). Given that, maybe better I just got across a half hour earlier and at least knew about when to expect you, and would have been able to send help if you guys weren't in sight shortly after I got to the take out.
Not the first time I've been in pretty much exactly same sort of conditions in same place. Not uncommon if the afternoons. I defaulted to doing what I usually do in that stuff.
I paddle solo so much, all in such warm waters, and mostly min semi-urban areas. Has allowed me to be a bit lax and I often carry less than what I might elsewhere. Also don't practice towing and assisted rescues much at all.
I am paddling in the Plymouth area
but I’ll be glad to get back to our warm southern water.
Two days ago the water temperature out at Bug light was probably colder than yours at 56 degrees.
I thought I was going to get hypothermia of the ankles getting into and out of the yak at Plymouth Beach.
Cheers,
JackL
Can’t help but put it in perspective:
– Last Updated: Aug-02-08 9:10 AM EST –
Pretty sure you couldn't get a Northwater bag from NRS in greenland and pretty sure there was no oficial 45 ft minimum line for a tow in Alaska or the west coast as opposed to 30 feet on the West coast of Greenland. they had ropes. these ropes were either tied around the waist or affixed somehow to their boats (which didn't have cam cleats either btw)
No BCU or ACA people around to give opinions either.
(there goes my BCU standing...)
this kind of reminds me of greenland paddle threads. Everyone wants a 16 oz paddle and talk about how many times you pick the paddle up in one day and come up with some astronomical weight. But then we go to the gym for "exercise" and pile on the weight. go figure.
My point is that just a few years ago a rope tied around the waist was one of the few options. Jays comments to make it a very wide loop minimizes the risk. What about home made tow belts? Lots of them around which take the best of what the individual feels come in the commercial ones and modified for their use. there are tow lines that attach around the coaming, and mine is a belt with a quick release. there are others that attach to a cam cleat behind the paddler. some have issues with gear on the back deck or rudders. Others have straps instead of rope.
I took 4 star training with an instructor at Tybee from England who carried not only a conventional tow belt on his pfd, but also had a line in his pfd pocket with a carabiner and attached to the other end to a d ring in the pocket to help raft up, and one more set of line in another pocket for any eventuality.
Jacks tow line does at least triple duty. now that is innovation and efficiency. And... he left the Northwater tag at home (saves weight)
The op asked for suggestions. He got them, along with some valuable advice on how to improvise. You can be as prepared as you can be but in the grand scheme of things, the one that worked is the one that was the best one, be that a rope around the waist, around the coaming, through the ((insert your paddling organization name here)) ring in your nose, or whatever. I do not buy into a particular organizations dogma about what is proper and I sincerely hope you don't either. That kind of limiting mindset can get you in serious unprepared trouble.
Sorry for the rant. My obvious and still ongoing frustration that I didn't have my tow belt AND / OR and alternative like jack had in that situation is clearly showing.
Paul
best kayak class I had
was SeaTreks open bay/rescues class in '93. No ACA/BCU curriculum, no tow belts, The instructor basically operated from “let’s do it”. Packed more practice in a given time than any since. Does make one appreciate clips/carabiners compared to tying knots in bouncy water.
Giving the BCU or ACA a bad time…
…is ridiculous. What a waste of time for folks in the paddling community to give these organizations a bad time that are doing a great deal to make paddling safer and more fun. Why would anyone rail against that? Of course, there are many other ways to learn and other people/organizations to learn from. It seems to be a bit of a fad for some folks on paddling.net to diss the ACA or BCU. I’m not going to diss any potential way to learn. Those organizations are one (two) way to learn and due to their size and input from so many folks, they’ve developed a great curriculum, from my limited experience. There is no replacement for personal experience, howwever, as well.
I personally have the mindset that you learn from whatever you can from whoever you can. Is that unlimited enough for you?
All I did to start this BCU/ACA ‘catfight’ (if I started it…not sure and really don’t care) was to mention to the OP that a place to ‘start’ looking for some training might be an ACA or BCU certified instructor/coach. I said that as a default because I have no idea where he lives and the training opportunities available there locally. Given that, I knew that if he were able to hook up with one of these organizations, he would likely (just maybe) get going in the right direction and additionally through the testing process potentially learn to assess his skillset/experience/judgement more accurately.
Ooops…I said another bad word–TEST. Yes, I did. Training is great, but the test shows you if you ‘own’ that skill or concept or not. If folks want to go that route, no one should be afraid of a test to give them a snapshot of their skill level at that point in time. More can be learned from one test to honestly reveal your skill level than much training. There is nothing wrong with tests.
Learn anyway you can.
Agreed.
I will learn from Mother Goose if she would teach me anything!
All training is good. All information is good no matter where it came from. No one is giving the ACA or the BCU a hard time here. They do have excellent curriculums and have an approach to test skills where they can establish a level of expertise. (It is not perfect but at least it is a system) I hold a BCU cert and am working on ACA.
I think the issue is more that the BCU or the ACA are held up as justification for proving a point or two. And I will say again that the BCU and the ACA are not the sole resources for learning! I know lots of great paddlers who have never had a class. JackL is one of them. I would paddle with him anytime and can accurately say that I would have doubts about paddling with some of my star acquaintances. This is predominantly because of butt time. You can train and pass your certifications, and then not get on the water for months and while you still have your cert, you may have lost skills just from non use.
I may be at that point myself with ocean time being a rarity these last 6 months. I get out on the lake (big lake) just about every day when I can and get my share of fetch and wind waves but it is nothing like the real ocean and I miss it.
BCU and ACA are great organizations. Just like Delmarva and other Greenland symposiums are excellent resources, and just like local instructors and fellow paddlers. It is all good.
Paul
no tow rig but 50’ of line?
– Last Updated: Aug-02-08 7:40 PM EST –
And made out of hemp so you could smoke it? :) May never want to get back to shore.
Nah
Greyak is more the St. Bernard with the small barrel of brandy.
Or is that me?
Paul