...by the keel can roll. To do so, the whole boat would have to work its way upstream against the current - not gonna happen. Any stoppage of the boat by a part of the hull that's higher than the bottom will create the risk of rolling, but if the boat is stuck to the snag by its keel, there's no way. It could roll downstream of course (the opposite of a normal pin-and-roll direction), but doing so would release the keel from whatever was holding it. Actually you can take that idea to an extreme by putting a lining bridle on both ends of your boat and letting it out into the current sideways. Even with a load and solidly anchored by the two bridle lines, a canoe cannot roll if the anchor point is right on the keel line. It will lean such that the bottom of the boat faces into the current and ride up higher, but it will not flip.
haven’t sunk yet because of it. .got caught on lots of rocks and had the keel catch, but either it will roll over the rock or the boat will just swing around and loosen itself. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been wet a few times but don’t think it was the keel’s fault.
The keel gets hung on the rock edge … … the wieght on that single point of the keel is a lot and the canoe can not move forward or backward , it’s stuck on a 1" square area and that 1" area is now efectively becoming an instant see-saw , the current flow turns the boat sideways (a pivot) , the flow now is broadside and pushes the bottom up and she rolls over to the downstream … the spin (pivot) is quick and violent , the rush or shoot you were setting up to run through has rocks and jag edges above water line on either side and that’s why you chose to run the sliding board and not crash the obvious above water rocks … how can it happen you ask , just set 400 to 700 lbs. on a 1" square area and see just how well it sticks … especially Grumman aluminum boats , they stick like they are nailed with one nail right through the center … stick , spin and roll , dump your gear and have a nice boat exit , real quick !!
...my brother's old Grumman, and a bunch of the aluminum canoes owned by the university outdoor program back when I was in school. The only thing that ever happened when the boat tipped toward downstream direction was to stay put, or slip-slide along, or be released completely and float free. Once the boat starts tipping toward the dowstream, the current is pushing on the very bottom of the boat - not a good place to do anything except slide and/or lift (with a ramping force). To get the canoe tipped sideways enough to roll and have enough hull exposed to the water would require a very deep hang-up, and with that much hull submerged, it usually just lifts.
That's been my experience. Never seen it happen any other way either. I've seen countless pin-and-roll situations, but never when snagged by the keel.
more … … when the boat heels over at 30 to 45 degrees and is perpendicular (that’s sideways) to current flow (advanced weathervane) , what do you grab for ?? … oh , the upstream high side gunnel , the one you’re now looking up at , that helps a lot doesn’t it ??
Oh … … so I guess the extreme pitching to the gunnel is a no concern situation for someone with kids in the boat ?? … you may have enjoyed the situation and been well advanced in what happens next and prepared for the event , even doing so on purpose for the fun of it , I’ve stalled and spun airplanes a few times for practice , but I’ll let you in on something , if you aren’t prepared and practiced in recovery , you’re in a heep a sh*t , same goes with all other craft one must manuver , when an unexpected pitch , roll , slide and yaw catch you off guard , most will immediately become the rider instead of the driver , cross your fingers and hold on huh ??
A roll takes place … … around the longitudinal axis , a roll doesn’t mean a flip over (180*) , a roll to 30 or 45 degree is still a roll … anytime the boat leans to either side it is effect in a roll , even at 5* … I think you are speaking of flipping the canoe upside down (a 180* roll) , that does not happen to my experience when the keel hangs , spins the boat sideways (yaw) , and rolls over to the downstream side , but for all practical purposes it might as well finish what it started because the occupants are thrown way off ballance and doing their level best to keep from falling out … might as well just let go and drop in …
...extreme pitching, it's not the keel which is holding you. Go do that bridle line demo I suggested and report back.
By the way, back in my tandem-aluminum boat days, my skill level was pretty mediocre, and I paddled with people who's skills were atrocious. I experienced what I experienced and I saw what I saw. I still say that the person asking the question about the Old Town Stillwater, especially on the sorts of rivers he suggests (no mention of severe conditions, just some current), will find a keel to be a minor annoyance at times and nothing worse than that. He's not even using an aluminum canoe, but something with a hard and slippery fiberglass hull. I'd worry more about the keel interfering with general maneuvers and getting in trouble that way (even that's not a problem if you know a few tricks) a whole lot more than I'd worry about getting caught by it.
OK , good enough … … we’ll have to agree to disagree then if that’s OK with you … also I do not understand about the bridle line demo you speak of , don’t know what it is or what it’s about , and I’m willing to try and learn something if you want to expand on that some …
Canoe Bridle In the days before painter attachments were drilled through the hull near the waterline, such as “tugeyes”, the standard way to line a canoe through rapids was to rig up a “bridle” (and a bridle is safer even than drilled-through attachements in really fast water). That’s just a rope that wraps from a seat or end thwart, under the hull, and back again, forming a tight loop under the boat. Right at the keel line, a painter (pulling rope) is attached to that loop. With one pulling line attached near each end of the boat, you can steer the canoe around various obstacles while standing on or near shore by adjusting the lengths of the two lines. By letting the canoe run at an angle to the current, you can “fly” it (like a kite, only horizontally instead of vertically) out farther from shore to go around rocks. With the two lines attached at the keel line, no amount of cross-current can upset the boat.
OK , I understand now … … what you are talking about when you say “bridle” , though have never needed to “bridle” a boat … “tracking” a boat with bow and stern lines from shore is probably the exact same thing you are talking about , using the river to ferry (you called it flying like a kite) your boat upstream while on shore with ropes … also can be used to avoid some portages downstream that you would rather not run while in the boat … up stream , keep the bow farther out than the stern , down stream should be same principle except now you are backing the canoe up … if the bow swings in farther than the stern , the canoe will spin and roll … can be done with two seperate length lines or better with a single long line attached to both ends … you will always want to keep the boat pulling away from you (bow farther out than stern) , you can pull on a rope but you can not push on a rope …
That’s right, … … and yes, the word “bridle” isn’t in such common use now, but that is the name for the setup used to attach the lines to the bottom of the hull. The method works just as you describe, except under no circumstances, even if your screw up big time, will the canoe “spin and roll”. That can only happen if the lines attach somewhere OTHER than (higher than) the bottom of the hull. The higher the attachment point, the more likely the boat will spin when crosswise to the current.
Keel Thanks guys for all your comments. Just last week while taking a Canoe and Camping class my 15 year old son and I hit an exposed branch in such a way that quickly rolled us up the branch and swamped our boat. We were told to lean into the obstacle when that happens but it occured so fast that we didn’t have time to react. The stream was moving very fast (about 4 miles an hour) and we were in a 16 ft no keel Mohawk. I live in Southeast Louisiana and will do most of my paddling on bayous and creeks around this area so I won’t be running any kind of strong rapids dodging rocks. Next month we plan on taking a river skills class and will take my stillwater along. We’ll see what happens.
Mostly agree… I paddled a 15 ft. Grumman with keel for many years, never found that the keel caused me to get wet. Only drawback was that I needed an inch more water than I would have without a keel, and the only advantage was that the keel caught some wear that would have otherwise scratched up the canoe bottom. I paddled “shoe keel” aluminum canoes during that time, and never could see any difference in performance as far as tracking and turning ability between a Grumman with a keel and one with a shoe keel, which only protruded a quarter-inch or so.
Keels in Royalex canoes like some of the Old Towns do absolutely nothing to aid performance, in my opinion, and the fact that THEY catch a lot of wear that would otherwise be spread across the bottom is a distinct disadvantage. Their only purpose, as far as I can tell, is to stiffen the bottom of the canoe.
I hate keels … for the most part. They always catch on rocks and trees when in shallow waters and make the boat very unstable. In big open water with a lot of wind they try to force the hull to go straight when it may be safer for the boat to move around more (i.e. roll with the waves).
So, generally you can remove a keel from a boat, but it’s easy to add one when needed. Take along a roll of duct tape and a long piece of 3/4" or larger diameter rope. If you need to cross a large boady of water and want a keel for this, tape one on. It can easily be removed when you don’t need it.
I’ve been reading a lot about keels. I’ve got an old (have no idea how old) Allagash 16’ fiberglass canoe with a keel that came to me secondhand and cheap - free. I’ve done a bit of fiberglass repair on it, and particularly on the keel. My wife and I enjoy river trips and now after reading about the drawbacks of keels in shallow water and rocks, I want to remove the keel. Any advice? I’m thinking I can just use a sawzall or angle grinder with a cutting disc and just remove it flush with the bottom of the canoe. Then cover the gap with fiberglass mat (2-3 layers) and epoxy. Any advice would be appreciated. We’re tired of getting hung up, particularly at my back end. I outweigh my wife by ~70 lbs.
Mostly I run rivers so I cannot stand keels. They make sideslipping and controlling boats in current much harder. Once you learn your strokes controlling a canoe without a keel is easy. I prefer noticeable rocker in addition.
Many older canoe designs had keels to join the two halves of aluminum and early fiberglass boats together. Canvas canoes often had them to protect the bottom from abrasion. Don’t drag your boat around and you don’t need a keel.