Kneeling solo, part 2

After getting big mileage out of the last post, thought I’d post and update on my search, at the suggestion of beachcamper and others.

Money is an issue for me at this point. I just can’t see myself buying a new boat off the floor, not even $1500 for a solid used boat.

This boat will be my second solo, although I may end up using it more than any of my other boats.

I think I’m going with the Indy because I can find one in my price range and it’s at least within the realm of boats I like.

Wish list would probably go like this:

  1. Hemlock Peregrine
  2. Bell Merlin II
  3. Swift Osprey
  4. Bell Magic
  5. Indy

    I’d love to have all, but I think the Indy is the only one of those I can find used and in good shape in my price range.

That is kind of my philosophy too
whatever happens to float by at an affordable price. Assemble your list of what is acceptable…and wait.

I ambush hunt for good prices. Sometimes there is a wait of a year or so.

I got Peregrine that way. I got Merlin II that way too at a closeout of a paddlesports shop.

Sooner or later with luck all will float by you at a good price. You may or may not change your stable. That is OK.

They are all great canoes
If you can find any of them in decent shape within your price range, I’m sure you will be happy with.

In a way, I kind of enjoy not owning canoes I would like to have. Every time I get to borrow or paddle such a boat I get excited about it again. If I owned it, it might become boring.

Have you heard of the Old Town Pack?

build your own??
That is what I will try.

The osprey plans are for sale

not sure about the others.

but I think especially the stitch and glue version could be cheap and fast. I will see this summer.

Probably the first one will NOT
be cheap and for sure not a project that will be fast. Its a great hobby though and the second one will be cheaper and faster!

that’s my thinking too
it’s not as easy as it looks, especially when trying to keep weight down.

Next year
when I get a new Osprey (with carbon),

the one I use now, will likely be for sale.

It’s a blem, so it could be affordable?

Questions and Answers

– Last Updated: Jul-01-09 10:47 AM EST –

I'm not sure why we're continuing this thread. Interesting that KL is keeping his kneeling converted RobRoy but won't consider a kneeling Magic for more stability. One would think the shared handling characteristics are either preferred or not.

But this is a fine opportunity to compare the OT Pack with the fine trippers on KL's list. While we know OT underestimates their weights and catalogs the Pack at 33 lbs, let's be generous and say all the hulls can be had near thirty pounds.

The Pack has a length/width ratio of 4.7, the other hulls on KL's list range from 6.4-6.9. This tells us that the Pack will not track nearly as well as the composite trippers. It also gives us an indication of how much wave making resistance the hull will generate near hull speed.

Hull speed calculates at 5mph for the pack and at 6mpg for the trippers, but that isn't the whole story, it will be Very tiring to keep the Pack at anything approaching hull speed while the trippers will cruise close to maximum.

It comes down to the fact that canoeing can be a skill intensive sport for those interested in that level of commitment. Not that every paddler cares to make the investment in time and dollars, but better knowledge, proper conditioning, more skilled technique and good gear all enhance the experience.

It's akin to regional bicycle races; the better riders don't show up on Huffys, which doesn't take away from those who pedal a couple miles in the evening on one. The gal on the Serotta needn't look down on those pedaling around the bike path. Similarly, those on Huffys shouldn't criticize the gal on her carbon framed bike because she's chosen a more intense game that requires better equipment.

Osprey is a neat boat, akin to the Wenonah Argosy and Bell YellowStone in performance. All three paddle an inside and Cross inside circle and all three skid an inside heeled turn past 200 degrees of rotation.That said, these hulls have lower Length/Width ratios than the other bottoms mentioned, 6.4, 6.0 and 6.0, in order, but then so does Indy [6.3] if Vt C's published data is correct.

Peregrine has a length/width of 6.8, Merlin II 6.9, Magic 7.2, Wenonah's Prism and Voyageur are 7.4, all indicating better tracking hulls.

stitch & glue Osprey
New plans for the S&G Osprey are available from:

I built one that ended up being a prototype of sorts – the original plans had some errors, and I ended up working with John Winters(the designer) and the folks at Newfound Woodworks to figure it out.

It’s a bit wide for me as a solo, but it seems nearly ideal for a human + large dog day-trip canoe.

I haven’t studied the new plans, so I have no idea how it would compare to the updated version.

I have paddled a strip-built Osprey and enjoyed it.

I hope I can prove you wrong :slight_smile:

The fast thing is that I do not have to wait for a container to be shipped to an otherpart of the world.

If you wnat like me a boat from Amerika to Europe or the otherway around, You can easily wait for halve a year before your dealer/builder has shipped a container to the other side of the ocean.

Most building materials can be bought in a day.

I want my shape right so the sawing will be probalby cnc cutting. Not cheap (I think the most expensive part of the build), but it is fast and accurate to it saves double time I hope.

I do not like sanding. So I like to go wet on wet. SO you needsome speed:)

I do not care much about looks.


It is not a big boat.

I have looked at other (first) builds. and hopefully learned from them.

4mm ply and 4 oz glass, should keep the weight down.

It will not be for tripping.

I have worked with wood/glas/epoxy quite a lot in the past. I will get some good friends to help out.

hopefully that will save my ass.

glue stitch osprey
I had contact with Greenval and They assured me that, all problems have been sorted.

Hi Angstrom,

Your build is an inspiration for me, and 1 reason why I want my board cnc cut.

What are the main differences in paddling the stripbuild compared to the s&g one?

Did you see this film?

– Last Updated: Jun-30-09 4:03 PM EST –

Trailside had a video back in the 90's of Bardy Jones and John Vieman doing the Everglades on solo canoes. Jones was in the BJX and Vieman was in a Mad River. Here is the part 6 when they get to the mouth of the Chatam and are crossing to Pavillion Key.

Here is part one where they start at the head waters of the Turner where bow rudder or cross bow rudders are encouraged ;-):

It has nothing to do with your post other than to illustrate that your list could get even longer.

hard to say
I only demoed the stripper once several years ago. All I really remember is being impressed that it was starting to whitecap on the lake and the Osprey felt fine.

I don’t have a lot of time in my boat yet. I just got it on the water last fall, and I’ve had vehicle issues this spring that have kept me ashore. :frowning:

i’d love to have a magic
can’t find a used one under $1,000. money is the issue, not desire or, directly, need. if you know of one under $1,000 that’s whitegold and in florida, please let me know.

i hope this won’t be my end-all solo. i’m a relative spring chicken around here at 35.

maybe a few years down the road i’ll have the cash to drop on a new peregrine or used carbon Merlin II.

and one reason for continuing this post is to talk about quality solos. seems like people like the topic since the first one garnered 51 posts.

come on charlie, you know you like to talk about solo canoes, too. :slight_smile:

al right, then I have to wait
Until I have this pleassure.

Sorry to hear from your transport problem. I am lucky in that way. the canal is just a 2 minut walk or something… not that I have put in a boat there yet. perhaps tomorrow. I did not bring any flatwater boat home jet.

thanks for that link
I got enmeshed in all the videos!

Twenty year old technique
While it’s neat to see old friends with their hair still on, That draw/ cross draw are among the weakest, least effective, abeam strokes I’ve seen. Compromised blade orientation, bad bio-mechanics and non existent hull control.

Maybe we are making progress?

I like a bow or cross bow rudder in those creeks :slight_smile:

Charlie, what is that BJX canoe that Bardy is using? He says that he likes the design for Everglades cruising.

Lotus BJX
It’s a Mike Galt built Lotus Bardy Jones EXpress, 16 ft long, no rocker to speak of, constant flare and tightly cheeked stern.

It was the most elegant solo canoe ever made, but it’s slow for it’s length and a bear to turn. SteveT on these pages had his at the WPASCR with a for sale sign on it. Steve Skinner could facilitate delivery.