I decided to change the description of the Northern NE Surf Kayakers' board, even though most of the folks I talked to have shared the basically the same opinion about personal responsibility. Nevertheless, better to be explicit, The description now reads:
The Northern NE Surf Kayakers' board promotes the building of a surf kayaking community in the northern New England region, MA/NH/ME. "No rules and no dues" apply. Surf kayaking is inherently dangerous. As such, each surf kayaker must take sole and full responsibility for being aware of the conditions, his/her skills and the decision whether to enter into the water or not. This is a community of "equals" who embrace fully the individual responsibility that comes with the freedom to surf. Each session in the surf is an opportunity to share our knowledge, experience and love for "dancing on the wave."
Our club has its own leader training… …which is followed by a self-assessment that is working quite well. We don’t “certify” anyone, per se, but we do monitor the level of “official” trips that people lead and will deal with anyone who we’re worried may be overestimating their ability in one of several ways, ranging from sending a more skilled/experienced trip leader along to observe and help if necessary, to not allowing the trip. On “official” trips, there are typically a leader and three or more assistants working as a team. Since most of the more active paddlers in the club have been through the leader training, its not unusual for there the be several trained leaders on a trip who are not part of the leader’s staff. We try to keep the leader-participant ratio to 1:5 or less, but I’ve been on winter paddles where the ratio of trained leaders on the trip to untrained participants was 3:1 or more. Anyone who capsized would be out of the water so fast it would make their head spin!
We take the opposite approach to ConnYak. The club is incorporated as a non-profit organization and we provide insurance on “official” club trips and events. Official trips appeal to people who want a bit of structure and a sense of security when they paddle. Club members are free to post “show and go” trips as well, but no leadership or insurance is provided for those. They’re essentially the same as the “group of friends” get togethers that others have mentioned.
Which model a club chooses is a personal choice. Ours started as an informal organization and evolved to its current state. It could change in the future.
Judgement proof? I wonder if you really have made yourself judgement proof? The club may have no assets, but the individuals do. And as we know, people in a position to do so these days will often sue everybody in sight first and ask questions later.
Also, you may have a winning case, but it won’t do you much good if it’s going to cost you $10s of thousands to fight it. You’ll settle and “lose” anyway.
IMHO, a leaderless format is not as good in covering against suits as signing up the club with the ACA to insure liability coverage for all official trip leaders. That does require getting some standards and practices in place, however, and is thus a lot of work for everybody.
But the notion that you have judgement-proofed yourself will likely evaporate with the first serious incident, particularly a loss of life.
personal liability coverage if you want to keep leading... Given what I go through at work to get insurance coverage for pretty much the "benign" physical activity programs we do, I doubt the club can find insurance and, if it could, the cost would jack the annual dues up significantly.
Matter of degree Nobody in this lawyer-infested country we call the USA is totally judgement-proof, that’s true. But we were advised by an attorney a number of years ago that doing things the way we are makes us pretty unattractive to suits. The goal is to be unattractive. Suing a bunch of individuals gets a lawyer really bad press, especially if they lose.
Here in CT, if someone files suit for something that happens in a group, they file against EVERYONE IN THE GROUP. The liable parties are sorted out later, or if there are none, and it’s a “politically sensitive” situation, then deepest pockets are found & attached, regardless of liability (As I said, I work in the business, so this is common stuff for me).
If you have homeowner’s or renter’s insurance, it will cost you nothing to defend — your insurance carrier is legally obligated to bear that cost and provide counsel for you at no charge, and also pay any judgements up to your policy limits.
Realize this ---- there is no complete answer. We live in a country whose legal system is deliberately designed to discourage any activity other than working for the man, and handing your pay right back to him. You’re not totally safe from lawsuits no matter what you do.
beware Wayne, you may be accurate, yet that will be small comfort when that same company then subrogates (turns around and sues you to get the money from you). Many insurances have this clause, pays to check this.
Further, they will not cover the thousands of hours of lost time and wages reading over legal papers, attending court, being defamed and mucked by the attorney, public humiliation, misunderstanding of friends, the public’s assumption of your guilt, the ruination of your business, the fact that many people leave the sport leave their community, etc, even when they are not successful. This is a very very nasty deal. Yes, not common, but whew it does happen. Especially as many point out here, in a bind when offer expertise, we increase duty to others, and liability goes up, and there is such a diversity of what is the standard of care.
Subrogate? Your own company cannot subrogate against you. Your insurance company has contracted to assume all judgements and liability from you. They can’t get out of it unless you violate the terms of the policy. They also have to pay ALL legal expenses, and cannot get them back from you under a personal lines policy.
Sure, you may have to take time off from work, but big deal – it’s better than what would happen if you didn’t have insurance.
If another group members’ company did subrogate aginst you after the fact, in most cases, all you’d have to do is pass the notice on to your agent — it’s usually a inter-company matter after that. Sometimes you don’t even know about it.
Most civil suits are subject to confidentiality agreements nowadays, so not only would most people you know not know about it, nobody is allowed to talk about any settlement that is reached. It’s so common now, that there’s no stigma attached in some parts of the country.
I think we’re getting WAY too far into this. It’s not an uncommon process in other facets of life (Like auto accidents in which someone is injured, which it would be handled exactly like). Relax & go paddling!
safety net leading I like your club format. I call this ‘the grid’. you plug in the numbers and decide if the trip’s a go.
Estimate the conditions encountered on the trip.
Know who’s going. RSVP’s required, no show/go.
Have appropriate leadership ratios with SOME form of training/qualifications.
Let junior leaders experience the lead w/ back-up.
good de-brief after with any issues discussed.
This leading with a safety net gives everyone experience and like you said if someone flips or a rescue is needed the ratio is such that the R&R happens quickly regardless of who does it. IMO, no one should even be on a trip of any consequence w/o R&R skills.
We did it yesterday. had a hoot. Mouth of the Columbia, 13’ seas- 20 knots of wind, 6 souls, all brought back safe and sound.
Liability defense via homeowner’s policy One last point… if your homeowner’s policy is used to defend a lawsuit, I think you can count on a cancelled policy and a steep price increase getting a new one, if you even can get another. Heck, these days home insurance policies are getting cancelled even for making minor claims – for events they are supposed to protect against.
Of course, that’s a relatively small price to pay for saving tens or hundreds of thousands of $$. But it better not happen twice!
Oh Jeeze… Was surfing “leader-less” today in winds of 25 plus knots sustained and gusts of over 30. Bouy recorded seas going from 8-10’ at the same time.
I made it home. Gee, I hope those other two are okay…
It’s worked well so far As you say, he idea is to have plenty of backup and a process that forces the leader(s) to consider the risks carefully. Official trips are routinely cancelled due to unfavorable weather, though they sometimes resurrected as unofficial trips for the stout of heart. Safety of the group is “Job One” and the planning and execution of the trip revolves around that. That said, it doesn’t mean that everything is rigidly controlled. The participants are briefed about the structure, timetable and hazards of the trip, on the beach prior to launch. Most leaders try to take a hands-off approach except when intervention is required. We teach leaders to be discreet, but firm. The best are the one’s who are the least intrusive during their trips, unless something goes wrong and requires action.
Registered Maine Sea Kayak Guide Up here we have a certification for anyone receiving compensation for leading trips or doing instruction. Many of the outfitters have classes to prepare you for the written/oral exam.
We have an organization that has good info on its website:
