Discussion wasn’t about hitting the fan
It was about asking a leader about his skills before even going out to paddle. Same for the personality question.
Nice story
Kinda illustrates the point I was making.
Specific to outdoor leadership training, an important concept is that of Situational Leadership (Tannenbaum and Schmidt are credited with proposing this,years ago). A positive aspect of the concept is that an experienced leader can move between application styles depending on the situation. Lots of time, and interested/qualified participants? Use a transformational type with an emphasis on participative or delegative style. Think democracy with an inspiring leader. Definitely not a good way to operate if the s*&t is hitting the fan (a fave term I learned from the Brits is “when things start to go pear-shaped”). Time is not a luxury, results need to be immediate. The skilled leader who changes suddenly into the autocrat/dictator will get fast and appropriate response because the very difference of style gets the message across. Since the sudden change to dictator is not about the leader always trying to exert control, but about preventing someone from getting hurt, this is a benevolent dictator.
Yes
I can point to some very interesting and well done research in avalanche incidents where testosterone was implicated as one of the causes.
I do have a lot of personal observations- can’t prove anything, just anecdotal evidence- where there was an obvious and positive benefit to group that either had a woman as a leader, or the leader elicited input from women in the group.
At a recent BCU 4* leader assessment I was running, it was very amusing to watch this one women take her turn at the lead. She modified the group structure in such a way that different group members were given tasks that played to their strengths, and brought the attitude of the journey from a serious tone to a very inclusive “fun” tone. She even recognized that one person, who was quite hard of hearing but very skilled, had been inappropriately used, and changed his duties (he was a sweep, and had been consistently out of good vocal range due to that task). The mood change was palpable. The other assessor and training assessor were sitting close by and we had to smother our laughter. The goal was the same, but instead a “follow me and do what I say” situation, suddenly everyone was glad to be part of a group on a (somewhat serious) journey. Was it a female thing? Not sure, but I don’t see it done that well often enough (she passed).
Wow he could dial a cell phone
– Last Updated: Sep-17-10 5:31 PM EST –
in the "rough conditions" but could not get back in the boat ...
I think he needed more practice with the latter before leaving shore .
My conclusion is that they needed to check the skill level of everyone before heading out, and make sure everybody could capsize and re-enter before starting the trip.
Suggestion
Back to the OP, and - “So, how do YOU handle that situation? If you go out with 3 or 4 friends in fun conditions - conditions that everyone in the group is well prepared for - how do you structure the group. Do you designate a leader? Does that leader follow their role closely through the day?”
Here are some ideas. Pre-launch, get a conversation started. For example, if it is a journey, get everyone to agree on how long it should take. After that, you could ask the group “anyone identify a crux point on the chart? I wonder where the point of no return is if it turns out our speed made good isn’t up to the goal…” I’d be willing to bet you get a whole group of people starting to think as a leader, and contributing based upon an awareness of the entire group’s safety. Rather than assuming hard skills and personal ability is the focus, they might start perceiving the necessary decision making junctures, and when, and where, and by who.
If it is a play session, use the pre-mortem test. “Hey, what is the worst that can happen here? If someone swims, will someone be in a position to see, or start the incident management?”, “Should we take turns in the catch-man position?”.
An example I use in surf zone play is to ask if anyone can reliably perform a swimmer carry in the case of an incident. The truth is, that most people can’t. I then point out that,since assisted rescue is unlikely and possibly dangerous, that we should behave as though we were paddling solo. Interesting how, every time I make that point, that everyone quietly gets up and starts taking a much longer inspection of the surf.
Structure of trips
The club I go out with most frequently has a quite formal structure for trips There is always with a leader and co-leader, signups, required equipment, etc. Although this can seem a bit regimented (though with the better leaders this is never a problem), when I hear these stories about the looser or chaotic clubs, my club looks better and better.
With a group of friends, one of the big advantages is you know what to expect from each other. You know the best navigator, the best fun finder, the best speed/strength/endurance, best in the rough stuff, the one who throttles back the others when they get too frisky. Formal leadership structures are much more important in larger groups, more diverse groups, unfamiliar groups.
In all these types of groups, making a habit of the types of conversations and pre-analyses otterslide speaks of is the way to go. Just like getting a current weather forecast, make a habit of it.
Women can change a dynamic
– Last Updated: Sep-18-10 9:00 AM EST –
In our club everything-that-floats evening paddles, when we first were participating the faster group would get on the water saying stuff like the leader has to buy a beer for whoever passes them. And the concept of a sweep position, or holding the group to a moderate of slowest pace rather than the fastest was not even in play. With the exception of one particularly talented paddler, leaders were all guys.
This stuff is rarely heard now if at all.
Two things changed between the earlier time and more recently, and the first was having a number of women come forward to be leaders. Most were like me, and valued being able to see all the folks in a pod over turning it into a race. The other was getting serious about having sweeps, which increased awareness of the stragglers. But having more women lead was the first change and had the most dramatic effect on this.
Granted there are women who make their way in sports and other endeavors by emulating the most competitive aspects of men. But in my experience that is not the majority.
Nothing wrong with acknowledging…
– Last Updated: Sep-19-10 12:28 AM EST –
that gender-based differences might exist. Might as well take advantage of them when they benefit the group.
It's like otterslide's account of the hard-of-hearing guy being reassigned from sweep position (where he couldn't hear what was going on far away) to one that used his abilities better. Everybody deserves the chance to put his best foot forward at some point, if it serves the group well.
Which is NOT to say that people can't learn to adjust their styles, gender-related or not.
Club conclusion is… ??
– Last Updated: Sep-19-10 8:01 AM EST –
If I am understanding this right, I agree with above that the club's response here is shaky.
The club needs to rethink this one - way. I've been out in winds like that and higher albeit not as a steady diet, and one of the days earlier in our paddling that was running 29 mph with gusts to the mid-thirties (one of the crew had a wind speed device as well as checking weather history) is our classic story about how NOT to approach a paddle. We got out of it OK, but frankly we were lucky. It was coastal. The 4th of July when we were on vacation and awoke to a forecast of 40 mph plus was actually safer, because it was so much that the most fire-eating of us had to agree with me to call it a day for skills work in a cove.
The club should have set a policy to relate weather to paddling skills out of this, not to better support the VHF industry. I would also be pretty suspect about a group that didn't retain this as a lesson of sorts - those wind speeds are common on the coast, making this event a valuable learning opportunity.
By the time the guy was in the water and couldn't re-enter, other factors are at play. Yeah you could talk roll or wet re-enter and roll. But from the sounds of how exhausted this bunch was, I like the idea mentioned above to to pull up on shore somewhere early and call a friend for a lift to the launch point. There's a point of tiredness where no one should be on the water unless they are racing or doing something epic.
Your guess is a good as mine…
Celia,
Not to be flippant, but there has never been any indication that the club in question or the participants themselves learned anything of value from the incident. You can still read the trip report (which I copied and pasted above) on the club’s website, but ALL discussion in regard to the incident has been removed from the club’s message board.
Only paying members can post to the club’s board, but anyone can read it. The club does have a section where one can post suggestions, whether or not they are a paying member. Shortly after the occurrence I posted a ‘suggestion’ that it was a mistake to take down the post-incident discussion, and that there were lessons to be learned. My ‘suggestion’ was never acknowledged, but it is still there.
That’s called denial
Trying to treat what happened as a freak incident that won’t happen again or that would’ve been saved by having lots of radios.
Why would such discussion be deleted? Maybe fear of losing prospective members? Fear of being sued after the fact???
I am with Nate
I am with Nate on group size: my max is 8 kayakers in mild conditions.
Groups larger than 20 is simply dangerous.
It’s just a matter of time before something happens.
Regardless of skill level.
Oh, unless the outing involves ridiculously easy paddle (and even then…)
What I don’t understand is why?
Why would anybody want to paddle in such a large group.
One thing is going to the ball game and sit on bench yelling with like minded people ( I don’t), it’s another altogether paddling on the water.
I don’t mind a party of 50 people (social event with beer, BBQ etc) but not a paddling pod.
Documented cases of large groups on the water getting into trouble because of sheer numbers have made me decide that less is more.
Paddling locale?
Your profile is Australia and Nate is talking about coastal paddling in water that never sees temps above 62 tops - the rivers I am talking about here are overwhelmingly flat (most of this paddling is in controlled sections between locks of either the Erie or Champlain Canal) and pretty narrow up this way including the Hudson. If everyone is kept out of the channels, they are never much distance from shore. Around a lot of the bends it’s easier to scrape on a part of the shoreline bed than not. The group cut out the earlier and later season paddles a few years ago in response to concerns the leaders, to keep them in the warmer water (almost bathwater temp in July and August) part of the season.
The other point is purpose - these paddles have social purposes that are less targeted than what we do on weekends within our smaller groups. The paddles won’t launch if there are difficult situations - unlike our smaller groups of like-skilled folks who regard that as an opportunity.
I am not saying there aren’t things to be resolved, as I indicated above. But Nate’s later question seemed to be about paddles that were different in purpose or character than what he usually experienced, and these large inland pods seemed to fit the bill.
By the way, we paddled once with a bunch named something like the Pemaquid Paddlers group who launched out of Round Pond, south of Nate a couple of hours but still in Maine. Since we were launching into an ocean bay, we were surprised to find that the group overall resembled the above-described inland paddle group more than not.
women who are leaders
are not emulating those qualities in men.
Leadership is not defined by gender. One would think by now, we could get past that.