speed vs. power
i know i get more power kneeling.
speed? that’s a different animal.
i can push my Rob Roy to hull speed easily while kneeling, and keep it there for a couple of hours.
but that’s a shorter hull (15-feet)than my marathon canoe (18.5-feet). i don’t know that i could push my marathon canoe to 7 mph and above while kneeling.
and you are probably right: if kneeling was faster in race boats, racers would be doing it.
Sitting
Sitting and utilizing foot braces with foot straps generally provides the best transfer of power during the power phase. Trim is also an important factor in attaining hull speed. Kneeling may cause a little more bow dive. Then there’s the use of a bent shaft paddle which gives the paddler the opportunity to best move water past the hull.
Rob
looks like kneeling is better
If the above photo is the high kneel position, then it looks like that proves my point. That position is far closer to kneeling than sitting, in fact it’s one step beyond kneeling and as close as you can get to standing without standing. I’ll have to try that position, although it looks like it may be less stable than kneeling on both knees.
As for other types of racing, I’m curious, what types of racing give paddlers the option to either sit or kneel? I’m not very familiar with canoe racing rules and customs.
Still, I wouldn’t be too surprised if marathoners and other distance racers did not see any improvement in kneeling. The reason is the hull speed “wall” or maximum speed that can be maintained with a given hull shape. As I pointed out in my sand hill analogy above, excess power expended above what is needed to hit max hull speed is wasted in a canoe. Since a properly trained athlete can achieve max hull speed in a canoe from a variety of positions, there would be no need to use postional advantage to do so. Perhaps it is easier to regulate the energy expended from a sitting position, doing just enough work to maintain hull speed without wastage. The only advantage the kneeler would have would be a the start, until both paddlers reached hull speed, and thus would be probably a fraction of a second. That might make a difference in a short “sprint” race (where they do kneel, as we saw above) but not in longer races.
GPS your speed kneeling and sitting
… I’ll bet you’ll be surprised that you can go faster sitting. I know I was surprised that I was actually slower kneeling in a Shockwave than I was sitting.
bow dive
That’s a good point about the bow dive, and I have not been taking that into account.
Kneeling in a Voyager & Delta?
Dave I kneel in my Voyager. I’ve raised the tractor seat 1.5" and don’t find it too bad though I may modify the seat a little. To me the Voyager feels a little more steady from my knees. But I don’t feel as much difference as I do when I go from sitting to kneeling in my Osprey. One thing I really like about the Voyager is that it really responds to a moderate outside lean.
Based on what I see kayakers do, I’m pretty certain that a seated canoeist with good thigh straps or knee hooks could heel as well as a kneeling canoeist. You don’t see many boats outfitted that way though.
Delta shape canoes? I’ve seen reference to that a few times reguarding the Magic. Is the Magic a delta? What other boats?
I don’t really know what the term means but I find the Magic a very easy boat to heel and quite responsive to that heel.
Am I missing something?
Tommy
I have
I have, although I don’t think it proves much except that I’m not a skilled paddler. (In fact, to be more precise even than the GPS, I’ve timed transits over set courses with multiple trials.) I am significantly faster in my Bell royalex Wildfire (Yellowstone) when kneeling and using a double-blade paddle. Kneeling and single-blading is second for sprinting, third for long distance. Sitting and double-blading is third for short distances, and second best for long distances. Sitting and single-blading is slower than all the above configurations.
That’s basically the reason why I have followed and tried to participate in the various threads about kneeling and double-blading - to try and understand why they are better for me but not, apparently, for many people. All I can conclude (other than the possibility that you all have gotten together and agreed to all lie to me, which on my more paranoid days I tend to believe), is that I am a fairly poor athlete with poor single-blade technique who compensates with crude mechanical advantages.
Oh, well, whatever the reasons, I have found a style that works for me, and gets me where I want to go. I’m still interested in the whys and wherefores because it helps me focus on improving areas where I am weak (like single-blade technique), but if I need to get somewhere as fast and efficently as possible, I’m usually going to kneel with my double-blade.
yes
high kneel in Sprint Canoe – C1 http://www.justcanoeit.com/Uploads/pam_c1_cameron_d_thumb_web.jpg
delta is
– Last Updated: Jul-12-09 5:22 AM EST –
probably just another word for swedeform, which means asymmetrical because of the greater underwater volume aft of the midpoint.
The first radical asymmetrical Sprint canoes (C1) was called a Delta?
Magic is swedeform, Osprey too.
if you want (a whole lot) more information about this, try:
http://www.myccr.com/SectionForums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=32116
single blade accelerated learnin program
– Last Updated: Jul-02-09 9:59 AM EST –
Get in a symmetrically rockered boat with moderate rocker (2"+) and practice paddling upstream. Paddling upstream really exposes and accentuates flaws. Kinda a like looking at your technique under a magnifying glass. And it makes you pay a big energy penalty for poor technique because you get turned fast and then have to recover.
.... and retire the automatic transmission while you're learnin' manual :)
High kneel hulls…
Remember, these hulls are desinged and constructed for high kneel only. Additionally, your mass is higher in high keel position than any other canoe paddling disipline (except poling, of course). I think few of us would find high kneeling in tratdtional canoe all to enjoyable.
I don’t want to dis any kayakers, but one of the things that makes canoeing so awesome is that we can move around in most of our canoes and kneel or sit when we want to, for whatever reason.
Open boat, open mind.
Rob
Just the opposite
a delta hull is wider aft that fore, a swedeform is wider fore than aft.
Nope
Fishform is wider fore than aft.
http://www.marinerkayaks.com/mkhtml/HULLSPD.html#Why%20are%20all%20your%20kayaks%20Swedeform?
Correct
I substituted swede form for fish form…sorry.
no problem
I sometimes paddled my swedeform MRC Pearl backwards so it became fishform, to find out if it tracked a little better then…
Power, balance and duration
– Last Updated: Jul-13-09 10:26 AM EST –
I think we'll all agree that we generate more bio-mechanical power high kneeling than kneeling, and more power kneeling than sitting.
Balance is somewhat different, probably better kneeling than sitting and better sitting than high kneeling.
We can endure longer sitting than kneeling and longer kneeling than high kneeling.
So, for sprints over 1000 meters, high kneeling rules, but note that the higher cadence of the double blade paddle increases speed for sitting sprint kayakers.
Slalom racers find kneeling offers the best combination of balance, power and control. Marathon racers almost always sit. Trippers often use all three stances over the course of a day.
Hulls, seating and paddles have evolved to optimize performance in each stance. Lots of that has to do with bio-mechanics available in each stance.
High kneelers transfer energy to the hull through one foot and one knee block. They use a long, straight or slightly bent paddle. Their catch is further forward and their stroke longer because the higher stance keeps the paddleblade square to the stroke longer. The stroke ends somewhere between the fore foot and the knee. Their boats are invariably mildly Swede form with significant, differential, rocker. The extreme length to width ratio, approaching 16, minimizes wavemaking resistance and allows high speeds. Double blade paddles improve cadence, forward speed and stability in sprint racing.
Dedicated long distance racers sit because it's the most comfortable and more maintainable stance over time. Sit and switch technique shortens the stroke and increases cadence, which delivers higher speeds We've found contoured seats and footpegs transfer power to the hull efficiently, the footpegs also improving stability. Because the paddlers stance is low, they cannot easily reach far enough forward to square straight paddles to the stroke over much distance. Bent paddles have evolved to today's 12dg which moves the portion of the stroke where the blade squares up to the knee to hip. Less power is generated because we're using fewer muscles, but the shorter reach tightens cadence and each stroke is less tiring than the high kneelers. What is compromised in sitting technique is control. The bent is already outside Winters' +/- 10 degree window, and the lower stance shortens reach, so draws and prys with a bent are weak and pitiful things.
Hulls have evolved into extreme Swede-form, or delta hulls primarily to resist squatting in shallow water, because most marathon races include rivers which have shallows. The hull cross section is usually tumblehomed, with minimal volume high to narrow the paddlers' station. This curtails extreme heels, because heeling past the low, widest part of the hull doesn't lift the stems farther and increases instability. The bent paddle induces less yaw when used in delta hulls. Double blade sticks improve cadence, and forward speed for long distance racers.
Kneeling soloists transfer force to the hull through their knees. The wide stance; knees in the chine, butt on a seat or pedestal is very stable. Torso rotation improves power and reach, allowing use of a straight paddle which moves the squared-up portion of the stroke forward and minimizes induced yaw. Hulls for kneeling paddlers can be tumblehomed, but volume
is usually carried high. The paddler's stable stance allows extreme heels which gives the paddler more control over hull shape in the water.
Hull form is generally Swede-form or symmetrical. Builders espousing Fish-form, Cod-head, or Cab-Forward hull forms are no longer making canoes. The marketplace seems to have spoken.
Slightly bent paddles allow trippers to use a faster stroke that requires less reach at the expense of increased yaw. As usual, the higher cadence and yaw correcting characteristics of the double blade paddle allow it to optimize speed.
So equipment has evolved to improve performance with each possible paddler stance in the canoe.
Of interest, Howie LaBrant of Moore canoe, ACA, USCA, etc fame won a staged marathon race from bemidgi to Minneapolis Minnesota. He and his partner paddled all stages high kneeling and won every stage. I hear he was able to walk again later in life.
GREAT PICTURE…
– Last Updated: Jul-02-09 11:50 AM EST –
I have to say that picture is the best I have come across on pnet! Unfortunately no one I paddle with looks like that....
So Delta is another name for Swedeform?
So Delta is another name for Swedeform?
But the tumblehome affects suitability for kneeling? That makes sense to me.
So if those statements are accurate, how do I make sense of the statement that a delta shaped or swedeform canoe is less suitable for kneeling?
I
think
I’ve
almost
got
it…
great explanation
Great explanation, CE, thanks for taking the time to post that.
The difference[s]
Many, most recent, trippers are slightly Swede form. With volume carried high they heel just fine, especially when the paddler is kneeling.
Dedicated sit and switch boats tend to have extreme tumblehome to narrow the paddling station and improve forward stroke bio-mechanics. When heeled past the wisest part of the hull, which is very low, less volume is being presented and the hull sinks deeper in the water with decreasing stability. [Yeah, the hull still displaces its weight and yours, but the new, heeled bottom shape is tippy.]
This is exacerbated in extremely delta shaped marathon hulls because those wide, narrow, wings have minimal volume.