Just curious if anyone knows how the Liquid Logic Remix 10 stacks up against the Dagger Axis or Dagger Blackwater?
Had all three
They are all billed as crossover kayaks but the Remix XPs are really white water kayaks and the Axis/Blackwater leans more flat water.
You would only find a Blackwater used at this point. The skeg design is different between the Blackwater (fin style) and Axis (more a blade). The Axis also has a center hull stiffening bar and a more comfortable seat. The hull design is a bit different. They are still rec kayaks but I think are better designed than most. They are fine in easy white water but you don't have the maneuvering you would get with a Remix XP. The keel can unbalance you going over rocks. The 12 foot versions are decent on flat water, better than a Pungo or other fat rec kayaks. They are nice beginning kayaks and probably could hold you over for awhile, eventually if you want to keep improving your skills you will outgrow them. You can add thigh braces and hip pads but once you do that you can push the price up another $100. The cockpit is big but no so big to make a skirt useless. For me they were some of the sportiest kayaks I could find being a big guy. An Axis 12 is still my flat water kayak for now. I am looking to replace with something 14 to 15 eventually.
The Remix XPs are fun on white water and so very slow on flat water. They are ok on a lake if you are in no hurry at all. They don't cruise they plow through the water. With the skeg down they go straight and if up they paddle like a white water kayak -- you need to keep an active blade in the water at all time else you will be spinning all over. They are meant to be in moving water. The skeg is nice for flat sections of the river. It is still a beginners kayak but still a useful kayak for experience kayakers who want to camp. The plastic is a lot tougher than the Axis/Blackwater. The seat is comfortable and has a backband instead of a high seat back like the Axis/Blackwater.
I get the impression you don't have a lot of experience. You might have trouble paddling a Remix XP at first if you were never taught the correct way to paddle. You might not like the XP seat but it is a big step up over the Axis/Blackwater seat design.
If you only want to stick with easy whitewater then all of the above are fine. The Remix XP is your best choice out of the three and as you gain skills it is fine for class 3. If you are going to be doing a lot more flat water than the Axis 12 is a better choice. Accept that you could outgrow these kayaks very quickly if kayak a lot.
What is your height and weight? These are good big guy kayaks but not so sure they are good for smaller people.
Good points. There’s the XP9 for smaller
paddlers, and it might make a better day paddling boat if one isn’t carrying a bunch of camping gear.
To put crossovers like the XPs in perspective, a bit clumsy they are, but try putting the same amount of gear in an ordinary ww creek boat or river runner and see what you get. Several of the crossovers have pretty good handling when loaded.
you’ve gotten a lot of good advice
already that is spot on. The xp10 is a very versatile boat but its slow- as others have said it plows rather than glides. What this means is you will expend a lot of energy lake paddling in it. Its a very stable ww boat- easy for a beginner, but its spacious cockpit, comfy seat and weight become drawbacks in more challenging ww (class 4+) and if you have to carry the boat very far you’ll find its heavy to lug and hard to drain. I used the xp10 as my “do it all” boat for hundreds of trips for several years and it worked for me but for each environment I paddled I’m sure there was a better suited boat- in the end I bought a “creeker” for my ww runs and perhaps at some point I’ll pick up a “flat water” boat as well. At that point the xp10 would be obsolete for me on day trips but I would still keep it around for overnights.
first time in XP10 this year
just yesterday on the Snake River in Wyoming with my wife in her Tsunami 140 (not the whitewater section). Because it was my first time this year in the XP10 (vs. my touring kayak), I was at first putting the skeg down a lot (very turny w/o). However, because there were shallow sections, I had it up a lot, too. After about an hour, I forgot all about putting the skeg down -- just adjusted my paddling style to a more WW style -- keeping a blade in the water and making more micro adjustments w/o really thinking about it much. I think it is a bit more engaged paddling rather then the kicking back style that is possible in a touring kayak. I also got more comfortable just floating sideways down the river sometimes. I was working harder than her to make forward progress -- her hull shape slicing more -- so the paddling was more efficient for her.
On the other hand, I was jumping at the available rapids which she was a bit more timid about. I did really enjoy the maneuverability of the XP10 -- split second adjustments of position vis.a vis. an upcoming wave for example. As others have said, an XP10 is not good on a lake. Also, if my wife had been in a hurry, I would have had a hard time keeping up.
At the beginning of the trip, I felt like a touring kayak would really be better for this section, but I was changing my mind as the trip progressed. It's just different -- this particular water being fine for both hull types.
Appreciate all tips/advice I can get. Yes I haven’t kayaked much. I’ve paddle two Blackwaters and some fishing kayak, a few sit on tops and a couple of Old Town Vapors and an Otter. I’ve mainly canoed as I have a Old Town Penobscot which I enjoy but I’ve moved and most my friends I’ve made here have kayaks, so I’m looking to get one since it’s easier to haul and seems easier to keep up with them too. Lol. I’m 5’7" and weight 155.
I like to paddle rivers and some white water not to serious. Love the Etowah River, and the section above Hwy 9 is probably my favorite. Though I’ve never paddled it at high levels. And the Withlacoochee river from Blue Springs to the Suwannee is a very nice paddle to at about 12.5 miles and 11 shoals. Where I live now (near Macon) we have the Ocmulgee River and the Flint River isn’t to far either, so those would be the two I’d paddle most. Thanks
If you get a lot of water, Murder Creek
is a short, amusing run with a 5+ ledge across the river toward the end. The Little River near Eatonton has a short section of class 2 (3) rapids, and is otherwise scenic. Just watch for trees in the narrow sections.
I believe that if you go to SOTP or Song of the Paddle, you can do a search and find my accounts with picturers of Murder Creek, Little River, and Towaliga.
Ezwater Eatonton isn’t to far away, 1.5 hr maybe, so will have to check out the creek.
Angstrom, thanks for the monkey wrench. LOL You know I looked at the fusion but haven’t really considered it, now after ready the comparision you linked, I will have to. I think I’d prefer the tighter cockpit than a wide one, I know I want to be able to glide and not plow on flats