Has anyone had the chance to paddle one of these?? They look interesting and I’d love to try one out, probally the 10 out on flatwater. The 9 looks too small for me. Anyways, all though it looks like an interesting kayak, I dont like their claim that they have just invented the first crossover to bridge the gap between touring and WW. Thats complete BS, as there have been other crossover models such as the Prijon Combi and Dagger Approach, which came out before the remix, intended as crossover kayaks.
very uncomfortable seat
– Last Updated: Jan-17-09 4:30 PM EST –
Definitely need to pad out area around knees so they aren't spread too far apart. There is plenty of room alongside the seat for small drybags.
The XP10 is definitely faster than the Dagger Approach, by about 1 mph which is very significant. The XP10 skeg box and control are much better and the hatch is dry. The Approach hatch is not dry but not a significant problem since I use dry bags in it anyway. The XP10 is humongous, it will easily hold 3 20-liter drybags forward of the foot pegs, two 10 liter behind the seat and 2 10s and a 20 in the back hatch. You have to take the minicell pillar out of the front to make room for cargo. There is a ton of room beside the seat and in the underdeck area for adding side bags like the ones from North Water.
The first Crossover I'm familiar with was the Dagger Crossover about 10 years ago, and there have been numerous efforts since. The Prijon Combi remains a favorite of mine; not as roomy as the XP10 and difficult to turn sharply, it will carve decent turns but the XP10 and the Approach are both more manuverable. The Combi is very comfortable and very well put together and nothing leaks. The XP10 is faster than the Approach but not as fast as the Combi. The Combi Whitewater never got built and the Combi touring is not rockered enough to be a decent whitewater kayak. I don't think the XP9 is available anywhere around here yet so I haven't seen one. These boats are ones you definitely want to try before you buy. They will not track like the Pamlico does, but they will turn a lot better. The XP10 is a BIG boat and I wouldn't recommend it for a river runner unless you want ultra-stability or whitewater camping.
I remember trying the Combi
Didnt track as good as my Pamlico 140 but it did turn quite a bit easier and was more snug.
Not the first
I couldn’t find where they claimed to be the first to design a crossover kayak. The best maybe, but not the first. All “crossover” boats seem to lean a bit to ww or flatwater and the XP (being the LL folks) is on the ww side of things. The Dagger Approach is more of a recreational style boat with no hip pads but a lot of rocker. The XP can certainly handle bigger water but you’re paying more for the fancier outfitting. Here’s a good review on the XP10.
http://shopgetoutdoors.com/blog/2008/11/20/review-the-new-liquid-logic-xp-10/
Question is, has any crossover leaned
far enough in the whitewater direction to be credited as a serious whitewater craft?
We had the Big Gun, and now there is the Critical Mass, both Corran Addison designed big water and creeking boats with rear hatches for gear. But neither is a credible flatwater boat.
Maybe LL is correct. I think the XP 9 and 10 might be the first crossovers that are acceptable both on flatwater and on whitewater. The Crossover was not, the Prijons have insufficient technical maneuvering ability, the Approach is worse than my old Hahn.
Check out the Jackson All-Water
Due out in March:
http://www.jacksonkayak.com/articlesrec/article.cfm?article=200812081
All-Water
the profile and dimensions of that All-Water look a lot like the Dagger Approach!
I will try to demo a crossover this may
rocky mountain adventures has some approaches in their showroom. hopefully I can get my hands on one at their absolutley fun demos. Currently, in larimer county, I’d say RMA is the best kayak retailler. Great selection of boats and gear, not to mention the best demos. Their demos are just PACKED. hundreds of people, and like 80 boats. However, when we first went there it smelled like natural gas. I e-mailed them and told them about it, and they said thats the “new kayak smell”!! LOL, thats interesting, since I never smelled that at any other kayak store, and my kayak didnt smell like that when I got it. of course, the smell disapears a few weeks after the e-mail. They could of just admitted it. New kayak smell?? Seriously??
I wouldn’t say so.
Corran designed the Sun Kayaks (soon
became Riot kayaks) Velocity and flight for that purpose about 8 years ago…
there was 2 version s of each boat bulkheaded/skegged/hatched and the basic no frills versions…
they were 13’…
i would not hesitate to take the rockhopper into a class 2 river…with its flat hull i can spin on a dime to catch a small surf on a a wave…
i am interested to see teh All-Water…i have chatted with EJ about it a bit…see what happens…
Fluid has one too
I can’t remember model name but it is a big boat with a big hatch in back. Never paddled one but I did see one with the open hatch at Gauleyfest with a prodigious amount of Bud on ice
different perspective
there are a handful of plastic sea kayaks that would work fine as river running touring boats, better than this new LL boat and the others mentioned. for many of the rivers that people are running rivers with in canoes, the WS Tempest, Valley boats, etc, would be great choices, but don’t expect to hit micro eddies or front surf steep waves. i think it’s all in the approach one takes to the river. i see some of the “white water” canoes that Wenonah makes, and they seem like slightly detuned flatwater haulers to me, and the assumption is that the paddlers are practicing point and shoot river running techniques, not Dagger Caption-esque sport tandem play. same goes for kayaks. i wouldn’t hesitate to run a large volume pool and drop river in a plastic sea kayak, if tripping was the goal. smaller, tighter rivers, would require the XP and it’s peers.
The All Water 9 is my size : )
The All Water 9:
Length 9"4"
Width 25.75
Height 13.5"
Optimum Weight Paddler 155 lbs
Maybe that’ll be the river kayak that I like.
Hopefully, I’ll get to test paddle one.
agreed
the Tempest is ideal for river running, it’s my favorite big kayak. I’m amused sometimes when people tell me I can’t run a river in a 17’ sea kayak. Well, why not? Is it any harder to run a rapid in a moderately rockered Tempest than it is with a moderately rockered 16’ or 17’ Old Town Tripper? People have been running Class III rivers for centuries with 16 and 17 foot canoe but its only just recently catching on with sea kayaks. It’s easier with a Tempest and similar sea kayaks because they are more manuverable and more sea worthy than most canoes, even the ones with fabric spray covers. Snapping a Tempest into a boat length eddy is easy, doing it with a 16 or 17 foot canoe is hard. Dedicated whitewater canoes of course are in most cases more manuverable, but when the Tempest can turn out 5 knot speeds on the flats the ww canoes will struggle to make 3 knots.
for sure, and how bout some others
if one didn’t want a really long skinny boat for bigger water, there are a number of quality cross over touring boats like the WS Tsunami’s that are shorter and wider, higher volume often than the narrower sea boats which would be great for carrying gear. mind you, i like canoeing and river running in a canoe, so that would be my choice most the time. easy in and out, nice view down river, easier to portage. all depends on the river, the party and objectives of course.
tradeoffs
My problem with some of the shorter, wider boats is that they’re harder to edge at my weight, and often have litle or no rocker to maximize tracking. I can turn faster in my 16’ Avocet than in some shorter boats I’ve tried because I’m comfortable laying it over.
Fusion from Pyranha - spring 09
skeg, hatch, touring WW - fun - forgiving
more soon.
Pyranha - Asheville
Thanks!
It’s great to see this new generation of hybrid boats. For years we’ve been saying “don’t run whitewater in a rec boat”, but there haven’t been many good options for folks who wanted something with more versatility than a whitewater river-runner. Now there are a lot more to choose from.
Didn’t Wavesport just make a Fusion?
Here’s all I can find on the Pyranha Fusion, looks interesting, so does the Speeder. What’s it like to paddle a Speeder?
http://www.hbcanoekayak.co.uk/Kayak-Pyranha.html
you guys think the Remix is big??
not compared to my Pamlico 140. I have a pretty large kayak I geuss.