That’s the second time I’ve been
impressed by that pic, jj. You are The Man!
That water looks good 'n cold, too.
Indy in Florida…
In April I paddle upstream/downstream othe Wikiva and Rock Springs Run and the next day paddled the Hillsbourgh for Sagents(SP) to Trout Creek (thanks sissy103). Everything was twisty turny. She was very much at home. She also loves running down the Mad River here at home (fast water to easy class 2 section) Fully loaded, she’s been on many a trip with me in the ADK’s. Wind and waves…no problem. I am bais, of course. If “versitility” is not a dirty word to you, the Indy is one of those solos that does many things well.
Lots of great boats to chose from. Happy hunting.
Rob
Everglades paddling
What didn’t you like about the Merlin?
On paper, I’d go with a Peregrine. But paper is paper. I don’t see myself getting a chance to paddle a Peregrine in Southwest Florida.
…
and the top of the list…Old Town Pack
I’ll bet that little extra freeboard
you’ve got on Indy would have helped keep me a bit drier last week!
I dearly love my Independence, but Charlie’s right, she can be a bear to turn for those not as strong as jj.
Lean baby, lean
Just sayin’
That Indy
was so pretty going down both those streams. I still haven’t figured out how you got her over that barely submerged log that went all the way across the Hillsborough. I mean, the Tupper slipped right over, but she is lighter than the Indy and I am lighter than you.
Maybe it’s me that’s got to get
leaner. And meaner!
Try an Indy
You will probably like it, and it certainly can’t hurt to try one if you get a chance.
I recently bought a Merlin II Kevlight- probably one of the last MN Bells - there are no flat spots in the hull that I can see. I don’t think “fragile” is the right word for the layup. It may not be “robust”, but I bounced it off a couple of rocks, pulled it loaded with 60 lbs of gear over several beaver dams, and ran the spillways in other beaver dams - normal things I’d do with any canoe. I didn’t abuse it by treating it like a royalex boat, but it isn’t fragile. I certainly wouldn’t go jumping off a bank into the boat, nor use it to haul rocks. Treat it like it was designed, as an ultralight piece of equipment - like any ultralight tent, bike, pack or whatever, you do want to be careful, but its not going to fall apart if you sneeze.
I bought the 29# Merlin for BWCA type tripping, with lots of portages. It sorta replaces my old faithful Indy for that, which at 45 lbs, is noticeably heavier.
I’d say the Indy falls somewhere between the Merlin and Magic - closer to the Magic. Maybe not as fast as a Magic, but I think it turns a bit better.
As far as handling in wind and waves, I have never hesitated to take it out on big open water with wind and 3 foot whitecaps - I find it to be a dry ride in those conditions even loaded for a 10 day trip.(I don’t go cross wind then of course, but straight into the wind and waves, or straight away). I’ve paddled it in tailwinds that were so strong I couldn’t use the paddle for steering - but had to lean way back and use the paddle as a rudder - boat stayed dry and rode the big waves like a champ (and might have been better than the Merlin in those conditions) If Vermont Canoe wasn’t so far away from Denver, I’d have gone up and bought one of thier 30# Indy’s, for a fact - I really like this boat and won’t be getting rid of mine just because I bought the Merlin.
I think the Merlin is a better handling boat in the wind, than the Indy and better for small stream travel, and the Indy is better than the Magic based on the one test paddle of a Magic I’ve done, and my observing Merlin and Magic paddled by others side by side (watching two good paddlers in those boats, side by side, its easy to see the differnces - I don’t see any difference in speed between those two). I’d say the Magic is probably the more stable of the 3,if that matters.
I have the sitting drops in my Merlin. When I tried kneeling, it shifted too much weight forward, and I didn’t like the handling that way at all. My Indy is better for kneeling than my Merlin, the way its set up. In headwinds and big waves, I always preferred to kneel in the Indy, except for tailwinds where you need to shift weight back.
I’ve heard that the Indy was designed to be a down river racer by Jim Henry, but this is what the MR catalog description says of it - they consider it a lake boat.
“Our best flatwater solo boat. A pleasure to paddle, the Independence carries good hull speed and is maneuverable when leaned. The narrow, low design is well-suited to a “sit and switch” style of paddling and is less susceptible to wind. There’s good cargo capacity for the solo paddler, and the sophisticated hull is a variation of the Shallow-V that nearly transitions into a shallow arch amidships for outstanding solo performance. Tumblehome at the paddling station means even easier paddling while flared ends keep the canoe dry.”
Indy, hard to turn?
I’ve read about that. But I’ve never experienced it.
Having a Merlin II and a Peregrine
both and now having several hundred miles in both I find there are advantages and disadvantages to both and only a test paddle in Florida winds is going to give you the answer for you.
I have the Kevlite UL layup and made a mistake that indeed shows the hull to be fragile. It upended in about a foot of water over basalt rocks. Basalt is quite sharp and some of the hull folded due to water pressure. I am sure the aluminum rails did not help. Anyway this is an older boat and not indicative of what you might find now. The boat however is a fine walking companion for smart and alert paddlers who never make an error finding a portage.
Prior to its injury I paddled it on several Canadian trips of a week or ten days each. With a load of 300 lbs or less the boat handled fine in all seas and the stern did not dig in too much in trailing seas. Add one large Golden Retreiver to that load and the handling and performance went all to snot. The Merlin II has a definite overload point. I indicate this only if you have to carry fresh water. My Glades trips involve a payload of 400 lbs because of the water carrying need.
Now Peregrine with a load is a good glider and stops becoming a sportscar. Its quite different with a load of gear than empty. Turn one over…it has a pinch in the stern and dropped rocker. More pinch than the Merlin II Add a lot of gear and even with a heel those stems wont clear the water. That means in following seas if you do get to an angle and want to avoid a broach and kick the stern back in it takes a heck of a sharp stern draw or six to do that.
I made a navigation error on my travels up creeks last week in Temagami and for three hours followed the wrong creek (there are no signs and a maze of dead ends). U turns galore and beaver dams…13. Only double that 26. I wished for a WildFire… I suspect the MerlinII might have done me better in the twisty creek with the alders intertwined and blowndown trees (duh a sign you are not on a route anyone has used in years). I was simply not able to clear the stems of the Peregrine to aid in those turns with a tripping load (total came to anout 300 lbs) even with rail to the water.
I have a spray cover for the Peregrine…for Gulf waters. It really needs one if you have it loaded. Same would go for the shallow Indy though the new ones by Vermont Canoe are deeper than the MR ones.
I have no hankering now for the Osprey as I have enough of this family type of boat (though I have a hankering for a Curtis Nomad) but what strikes me about the Osprey is its bow has a lot of flare which should make it an excellent wave shedder
Try a skidded inside turn. She’ll carve
– Last Updated: Jun-25-09 11:27 AM EST –
okay, and leaned to the rail, sure, she'll spin but, like Charlie has pointed out, the shallow-vee presents a wall to the water when pushed latterally. Shallow-arch hulls with similar length and rocker turn easier.
Maybe I should suck it up, go to Raystown, and have you show me what I'm doing wrong. You have more time in this boat than I do.
That’s a bit different than saying
– Last Updated: Jun-25-09 1:01 PM EST –
... the Indy is "a bear to turn." It certainly is not. And Charlie also says the Indy is harder to turn than the Magic. While he's forgotten more than I'll probably ever know about canoeing, I just can't buy that one. And, I've tried it through side-by-side comparisons.
At some point, a lot of this stuff is differential marketing.
By all means, you should come to Raystown. But I don't think I'll be able to show you much. I haven't really spent much time in the Indy. But, it's a pretty straight forward boat. Jim didn't make junk.
You’ve got your wish!
Peregrine was molded off a Nomad with increased layout bondo-ed on, and, maybe, some stern pinch filled in. So, you’re about as close to a Nomad as one can get, excepting minor variations from using a FG hull as a plug to build the successive mold.
The original Nomad mold is owned by D Yost and is currently in Canada. Maybe you should have visited…
a few things
– Last Updated: Jun-25-09 7:54 PM EST –
The Merlin was not as efficient as the Kestrel and also slower. Very trim sensitive and needed constant fidgeting with gear load to get it right depending on wind direction. With the Kestrel, no problem. Not as fun or as responsive. Was more affected by wind than the Kestrel. I did like how the Merlin handled when I was going against a tidal current.
I think that at www.solotripping.com yellow canoe (kayamedic) wrote a trip report on the peregrine in the glades.
The Indy
– Last Updated: Jun-29-09 8:56 AM EST –
Jim Henry and Rob Sarges have certainly never made junk!
That said, Indy, like all semi V hulls has it's handling predilections. It tracks well but resists shifts [sideslips]. Being a long hull with minimal rocker, the bow is resistant to draws.
Being a V hull, it prefers the hotter outside heel to inside heels, because posting the boat up presents the flat of the outside V to the water at a very helpful angle. Indy posts up very well.
Turning compared to Magic? Magic has significant rocker and very significant tumblehome. Put both to the rail and Magic turns tighter because it's somewhat longer stems are higher out of the water. It's not about love for your boat or hope, it's hull shape in the water; Magic lays down about 10 degrees farther and so lifts its stems higher.
Magic is, however, a dedicated sit and switch hull. Interestingly, Magic and RobRoy are very similiar, size-scaled delta hulls with very similiar handling characteristics: the bow is sticky and the stern loose. The delta shape makes them faster than expected in shallow water because the delta resists squatting, but slower in deep water.
Indy belongs in the group of medium sized, top shelf made, general purpose solo trippers that respond to both sit and switch and kneeling technique. That list also includes Bell's Merlin II, Hemlocks Peregrine. Swifts's Osprey/ Shearwater and Wenonah's Wilderness. 'Gotta try them all, preferably in new condition since similar condition is impossible, and together to make a rational decision about which fits your body and matches your paddling style best. They're all great bottoms.
bon chance, charlie
I hanker one but the present owner
wishes to keep it which is probably wise for him and me.
Thanks Charlie
After reading your post I think I understand why I am able to turn the Indy better than the Magic. I can not lean a sit and switch boat far enough to really lift the stems. Kneeling in the Indy gives it a bit more turning ability for me.
And I’ve been sitting in mine this
season due to a bum knee. Might explain why I was surprised by the dollop I took last week and my slow turns.
well
did ya get your Old Town Pack yet?