what’s with the Old Town?
we get it, you like your Old Town.
I don’t want or need a pack canoe at this point in my life, and I’ve never been a big Old Town fan.
One post was plenty for the “Old Town pack” or whatever.
thanks.
Nomad
There’s one for sale in Michigan - on e-bay I think. It’s listed as a 16 foot something but Dave confirms it’s a Nomad. Pretty boat for sure.
It’s a sweet boat at low speeds and would be elegant for low speed freestyle (the only kind?) and superbly made like all of Dave’s boats but my take is it’s a dated boat for anything else…for river use, medium to higher effort touring (covering miles) or maneuverability at anything but low speed the Osprey is better in all respects and Peregrine or Kestrel way more efficient for cruising than either yet much less playful than Osprey. The symmetry and lack of rocker seem to hurt it for anything but low speed enjoyment.
My experience is that Osprey bow fullness does not hurt it in real life…the rocker keeps the blunt bow mostly above the waterline. Osprey is actually quite narrow (and uniquely shaped) in the 3 or 4 feet of boat behind the bow stem and in front of the paddler.
I’ll race ya for pink slips in an Osprey against a Nomad any time and my take is that it’s a much better river boat too.
Of course the contruction quality of the Nomad beats all of the others.
Having paddled a Nomad
recently it is adaptable to FS technique in going forward… Not backward… There are far more fun boats if you want to go in a circle.Its a tripper for sure.
Its shouldered tumblehome lends more to secondary stability than my old Heron.
My impression is that the bottom is rounder than Peregrine but have no stats. Peregrine is a darn shallow boat.
Nomad is noticeably looser at the stems when heeled to the max empty. Unknown at load though Peregrine is really sticky stemmed with 300 lbs paddler and gear.
It was a LOT of work when I misread my map and went off up an unmaintained stream in Temagami and over all those beaver dams and u turns! Had Peregrine and did a little cussing.
But all in all we are probably discussing microdifferences in hull shape especially when heeled.
dude, the voyager is huge
you’re kneeling in it and liking the boat?
That surprises me.
coastal paddling in florida
rarely, if every, requires a bow draw.
i don’t need a boat that will sideslip or do a 360 on a dime. i’m not really into the whole freestyle, ferry, river stuff. We just don’t have much of that in florida.
and i’m quite used to cruising along the coast in outriggers and marathon C1s.
my other canoe is a bell rob roy, modified with an ed’s cane seat for kneeling.
in southwest florida, with open bays, creeks, rivers and the gulf, i’m paddling 95 percent in a relatively straight line.
It’s an A to B type thing.
But, I’d still like to have something wide enough to control in heavier waters.
New list:
- Hemlock Peregrine
- Bell Merlin II
- Osprey
- MR Indy
Thanks all
Maybe repost
with the paddling requirements outlined as above? I had a heck of a time trying to find information about canoes suitable for coastal Everglades paddling. Like you, more interested in safely and quickly getting through windswept SHALLOW bays.
I think you have covered all the conditions encountered. Maybe now our resident experts can look at your list again and give you their opinions.
List and fleet
– Last Updated: Jun-29-09 12:51 PM EST –
I find it strange that you're keeping a kneeling converted RobRoy but have dropped Magic from your list, as RobRoy is a downsized, semi-decked variation of the Magic hull shape.
Both handle like de-tuned marathon racers - typical delta hulls with significant bow rocker. At recreational speeds the bows are sticky and the sterns loose with the pivot point well forward. In shallow water the delta section aft resists squatting, so these hulls will be faster than your 15' tripper list in those conditions.
If you like the way a delta hull, albeit with significant bow rocker, handles but want more stability, get a Magic and shorten the seat drops. [Interestingly, we broke the Bruce Kunz designed Merlin mold the year Magic came out. We simply used intermediate seat drops allowing both kneeling and sitting while DY was lofting/tooling Marlin II.]
Not liking the way RR handles, brings us back to your list. Peregrine/Nomad is 28.5 inches wide, Merlin II 29 and Osprey 30. As all have identical, under 15 ft waterline length, we can assume that stability is roughly a function of width. [Yeah, DY's latter, elliptical, hulls are a little more stable than his earlier arched versions.] In a world without bow draws, additional width and stability can be had with Wenonah's Wilderness.
Strangely, the converted kneeling hull you're keeping, RobRoy, is a Yost design in his small tripper series. Curtis and Hemlock's Vagabond/Kestrel are earlier, arched design[s] with symmetrical rocker, [unless Dave Curtis added some skeg to the Kestrel plug's stern]. Placid's RapidFire is elliptically bottomed and slightly swede formed with differential rocker. The RobRoy is, again as above, strongly delta shaped with true differential rocker. All three/four are 27.5" wide and, while varying somewhat in waterline length are all under 15 ft. Another boat in this "class" won't improve your stability if kneeling, but I'd add Magic and Wilderness to your larger "next boat" list.
Handling:
Waterline length to width ratio will tell you which hulls will track better. Those with minimal stern rocker will resist paddler induced yaw better. Those with arched or elliptical hulls are faster in deep water, delta boats in shallows.
You'll still need to test them all, now two more, preferably together and all in new condition, since the skin friction of used hulls is highly variable.
Hey Charlie!
your post was truncated. Was it something you did or P.net? In either case, would you include the rest of your comments, after the word"including". Thanks, interesting discussion.
Pagayeur
A world without bow draws
hmmm that paddle movement is handy going upwind in the Glades when you miss your wind ferry angle a bit. Yes you can live without it but its like any other tool to make life easier.
My impression of the Osprey is that it for wnatever reason is looser in the stern than Peregrine and perhaps a better wave shedder.
Thats why in coastal Florida I have to spank the Peregrine pretty hard with a stern draw when she gets off perpendicular to stern waves too much. The stern is a bit sticky. And the spray cover helps a lot…of course 120 lbs of fresh water may not be part of your load.
Rapid was the sweetest handling boat but the wettest between it and Peregrine…again a spray cover is needed for those waves coming in just aft of the hip. Again with a load that is somewhat over what would be normally thought of as wise. I am waiting for dehydrated water…
Never took my Merlin II down there.
I will just add that hull speed is a plus when you are trying to fight tide and get through before you run out of water and in shallow places where you can literally feel the hull wallowing.
I took my Swift Raven down there too and overall over the same course the Peregrine was 50 percent faster. The Raven of course won the stability race; and made a decent stepladder to enter chickees.
Speaking of your Merlin II.
– Last Updated: Jun-29-09 4:34 PM EST –
I can't imagine paddling w/o bow and cross bow draws either, but, maybe the guy who started this knows something we don't.
By the bye, your new left rail came in through Raquette Riv. Out, w/o tempered pop rivets. I called Bell; paid the money. They don't take Amex so sent cheque. The rivets arrived Friday, so I cut the rails; marked the new inwale and opened the package.
They sent the long pop rivets for installing vinyl rails on ABS boats. Rather frustrating - emailed today, then called Rose, she'd already sent the right rivets.
I'll be glad to forward pics to anyone who believes Bell's Kev-Lite is a rugged laminate.
Light? Yes. Light and Rugged? Not so much.
And the knee pads are so close together they might have been installed by a thirteen year old contemplating her first date - definitely not out in the chines. Do I need to drop the seat to help you fit the boat??
Actually, no - it'll be someones' fishing boat from now on - no more expeditions. That's one of the two pluses of Kevlar. 1. It's light to tote. 2. With the boat wrecked, you paddle back from the Maximum Credible Incident; better than swimming.
Times have changed
Thirteen year olds are not what they once were, Charlie.
No
– Last Updated: Jun-29-09 5:39 PM EST –
I wear a mens size nine shoe.
Womens shoes are out.
Coming to you soon a picture of the cause. I went back to the scene and found the portage..ugly sucker of a portage.
For the rest of your post I toast you with a bottle of fine wine ;}