Looking for a used Delta 12S or 12.10, located in the Southeastern United States
Thanks
mjac
Have you ever considered the Current Designs Vision 120sp? You may not want a composite.
I will look into it and see if it should be on the list. Deltas are scarce and do not know what the tariffs will do, but there is no rush, waiting for a desl.
Looking for a short, maneuverable boat to run bayous and small rivers, no open water, but maybe a lake or two or a basin.
Thanks
mjac
Beautiful boat, I would like to find a used one, I don’t think I would buy new, $2,000 boat. But one thing that baffles me is all of these 12’ boats, the Delta 12S has a capacity of 220 lbs, the Current Designs Vision 120/SP 200 lbs and the Santee 116 which is 6” shorter , has a capacity of 300 lbs and the Current Design is a Swedish Design just like the Santee. No one can explain this to me unless Hurricane is fudging its numbers.
Thanks
mjac
You have to consider factors other than the footprint of the boats, for example, look at the deck height
:
Delta 12S (12’ x 24", 12"deck, max cap 220 lb.
Delta 12.10 (12’ 10" x 25", 13.5" deck, max cap 300 lbs. Here is the safe load calculation on the Eddyline site:
Now back to compare the Wilderness Systems:
120 Tsunami (12’ x 25.5", 15.25 deck, max cap 275 lbs.
125 Tsunami (12’ 9" x 26, 16" deck, max cap 300 lbs.
Here is an explanation of the safe weight capacity of the 125 Tsunami, which shows I overloaded it by at least 15 lbs:
One reason I could comfortably paddle the 125 Tsunami when I weighed 255 lbs is the higher freeboard compared to the Deltas. Since the cockpit coaming is lower by several inches, the Delta 12S will have very little freeboard in comparison to the others (a 12 inch deck, probably has a 9 inch cockpit coaming, combined with a 4 inch draft . . . ). I use a 66% factor for safe capacity calculation, but even at 70%, the Delta 12S tops the safe load at around 154, and I feel that would be sketchy.
The Delta 12S or the 12.10, kayak would be a wet ride compared to either of the Wilderness System kayaks, even the 120 Tsunami rated at 275 lbs.
Again, Eddyline explains what happens if you’re outside of the recommended range, either high or low:
When i dropped 30 lbs, I noticed how the 145 handled so much better, especially when edging, but the 175 didn’t handle as well, especially in higher winds which made it react more to windcocking.
The Current Design 120SP only has a 23" beam which gives it a 200 lb max cap. The Hurricane 116 has a 28" beam which is how it gets the higher 300 lb max cap rating. I cant find the deck height on either kayak, but im a bit suspicious of the 300 lb rating on the Hurricane. It would be more believable if it were a symmetric hull design.
The vision 120sp depth is listed as 12". For the Hurricane, I don’t see it listed maybe because the cockpit opening is 55" and it’s almost a canoe ; ).
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That is somewhat of a misnomer, the Santee you ate looking at is the Santee 116 “Sport.” The Santee 116 I am in love with is the straight, standard Santee 116. It is not made anymore and hasn’t been made for years because the “Sport” outsold it 3 to 1, because that is what people want and you are right, “ it looks like a canoe.” I believe the molds for the standard 116 were getting old too and they just decided to stop making it. You have to find a used one. The cockpit opening for a Standard 116 (measured inside to inside, which is not the way Hurricane measures them I believe) is 18” X 40”. Still really big but not as bad as the “Sport.”
In reply to your question about whether the load rating is realistic, same issues to should be consider. Look at the hull footprint and freeboard. If you feel mathmatically inclined, you can calculate the displacement. However, just like calculating the theoretical speed of the boat, the hull speed formula can get you within .5 mph of the potential speed of the hull. A 14 foot boat can maintain an average speed of 5 mph over 10 miles in moderate conditions, but most kayakers would rather maintain a more comfortable speeds of around 3.5 mph. Thats only a 1.5 mph difference.
Going faster simply takes more effort or greater efficiency. I believe a new paddlee can improve efficiency and increase speed by about 10 to 20%. Improving physical conditioning might increase speed by another 10 to 20%. That’s just my guess based on looking at logs over the years and watching how much I improve between the first trip of the season and the last, and by how much performance drops of I miss a week.
@Craig_S makes better gains because he manages his physical stamina at the gym, he’s younger, and prettier. Speeds that @szihn reaches is theoretical, because he doesn’t really measure his progress over long distances (no GPS). However, based on our conversations and his physicality, I think he is hitting up against the hull speed of his 17 ft Chatham (sustaining 6.2 to 6.4 mph for at least 1/4 to 1/2 mile. Both paddlers are faster than me, but I’m happy to follow with less effort. They might have been abused children, which gives them a slight edge. I don’t have to try as hard, because out of my mother’s 9 children, I think she loved me best. That’s worth at least 13% improvement in speed
There are other members who are faster, but they aren’t sharing secrets, which is their prerogative. It doesn’t matter whether anyone follows my advice, because it neither helps nor hinders me either way. It would be good to hear that it helped someone because it would support that I’m on the right track, which will give me a 7% boost.
Carrying capacity is similar. Load limit varies depending on the previously mentioned parameters, then factoring in the weight of a paddler, the cargo, and the weight of the boat (as much as 10 to 12 lbs difference between the referenced boats). Then the consider that less freeboard reduces the range to lean the boat in an edge and also offers less protection from waves washing over the sides.
At the end of last season, recapping the assisted recovery of a capsized rec boat in a potected cove (winds that day on open water were 10-15 mph gusting to at least 20 mph). The boat was grossly overloaded with no flotation. Her lighter son who was in a similar kayak (with a small frisky dog on his lap) only had about 3 inches of freeboard. She claimed being an excellent swimmers but after about 10 minutes in 6 ft of 58° water, she couldn’t put on the PFD or swim the 25 feet to shore. The son refused to put on his PFD to assisting us. We chased him off so we didn’t have a second rescue. The problem with PFDs isn’t equal with all paddlers. This incident highlights how some people get into trouble due to poor judgement, continue poor judgment, delude themselves about the severity of their situation, have no plan or self-recovery skills, then delay critical decisions they aren’t capable of making in the first place. While I believe in a PFD at all times, I recognize that many experienced paddlers have the presence of mind and skills to take care of themselves, with or without PFD (not intended to resurrect the debate).
@mjac, you probably understand the answer to your original question, but for any novice kayakers who are still unsure about sizing a kayaprimary message about kayak weight capacity is that an overloaded kayak is piggish; an improperly ballasted boat is succeptible to the wind and reacts with sketchy stearage. A heavily loaded boat isn’t necessarily slower, but it just takes more power to reach and stay on glide. Bottom Line: one boat is not typically good enough to handle all conditions, and one boat will not fit all kayakers. Overloading or underbalasting a kayak has unfavorable consequences. Back to the OP, regarding the question of whether the listed figure for the Delta 12S kayak is the legitimate weight capacity, a max capacity, the recommended weight of the paddler, or a safe capacity (factor of 60 -70%) of the max cap which is the weight where the kayak is balancing on the edge of flotation). I would consider it as the legitimate max capacity. If in doubt, compare other kayak specifications. For another example: the 120SP Tsunami (12’ x 21", 12" deck with max cap 180 lbs. The narrower 21" width reduces the max cap by 40 lbs., yet with a paddler weighing under 100 lbs, it handles moderate waves as posted previously:
lmao…good one
In another thread someone said speed is all about improving your power to drag ratio.
Also, consider an Epic Recreational GP. IIRC, they are around 34 pounds, will likely be a fair bit faster than the others, handles quite well, and are a great bargain when you find them used.
I will look into it.
Well Duh.
Then Trauma bonded by the US Army which gave me the ability to simply ignore physical pain and discomfort.
Great looking boat, Epic designs look good and these are super light. But it is a $3,000 boat, what do they go for used? I have never seen one come up for sale. .
mjac
Pain is temporary . . .
Yes but depending on the cause of those pains that word “temporary” can mean it stops when life stops.
I have steel in my left foot and ankle that got put there many years ago to try to fix it after the heel and ankle were shattered. It still hurts at times. But if you have a disciplined mindset you learn to make friends with that pain (up to a point anyway). And with 33 bone breaks and 4 wounds, my old body has taken some abuse in then past, much of which was on the delayed payment program.
All people are divided into 3 groups.
- Those heading toward a problem.
- Those who are dealing with problems
- And those who have come out of problems.
If that were not true no one would ever age or die.
How people differ is how they do or don’t deal with them. Craig_S has a mindset somewhat like my own. Time in the USMC and later dealing with issues while doing contract work with DOD has taught me to gut-through things and keep my focus on the completion of the task at hand. And speaking for myself only, I also lean VERY HARD on my faith and trust that God has given me some promises that He will never break.
So what does this have to do with Delta 12S and 12.10 kayaks?
NOTHING!
Of if you have my perspective---- Everything
,---- because I see everything in my life through the prospective of an overview:
I’ll do my best, and if I fail I learn. and if I succeed it’s just the next step to the next activity which I may or may not fail in too. ALL of life is that way, until the temporary affliction of all my pains are past and I go to be with God, which is the best retirement plan ever made.
Eye has not seen nor has ear heard, nor has it entered into the mind of any man of the good things God has waiting for those that love Him.
It addresses the remark, “Pain is temporary!” There’s a difference between ignoring pain of an impending heart attack, pain from misusing joins (such as the pain from the arthritic deterioration of my left shoulder joint), and the fatigue of being tired and going on. What we learned from our military is deprivation, endurance, and tolerance. Given a choice, we may have fallen by the wayside, but self motivation and force of will keeps you going.
My strategy is to set the pace I can managed given the conditions (an accurate self-assessment only comes with a means to gauge performance, such as a GPS, Heart Rate Monitor, blood oxygen sampling and interpreting that data, or long experience). Going faster can be the result of exertion, butbit can also result from improving efficiency, which also conserves energy stores. A GPS isnt just for tellingvyou how fast you’re going. It can be used to measure your energy output. I agree with Craig, when he says he doesn’t care how fast he can go. His primary concern is sustaining an average speed that he knows he can manage. When the opponent is burning out, hevis speeding up.
I look for my speed spike during the last 20 to 30 minutes of a trip. My last 1/4 mile typically shows an avg speed drop of about .5 mph, if I’ve used every bit of energy reserves. At that point, I need to recover for 5 minutes of just sitting in the boat and drinking water or stretching. Then I look for two or three days of rest or an easy paddle. I’m tired, but not frlm joint pain or muscle soreness. “Just plumb wored out!” My shoulder doesn’t hurt after a trip, because I learned how to lock out the shoulder joint. I don’t suffer muscle pain, just energy depletion. Rather than increasing effort to take advantage of favorable wind and current, I use that time to conserve energy, then I use additiinal energy to go against windcand current harder
(Fat fingered send prenaturely): I use that energy to go against overcome the resistance going against the wind and current. If I fall off the average more than I’m willing to accept, that’s when I’ll scream, grunt and push myself to keep the pace. The common wisdom is to alternately push and pull on the paddle, and push alternately on the foot pegs. If that works for you, good luck and God-speed. I can paddle with my feet off the foot pegs and my legs relaxed on the floorvof the kayak. That might sound bizarre, but at least two forum members have kayaked with me. You got to go with what your heart tells you.
Delta 12S - 12.10
That’s a scientific reply. You can pull out your calculator and figure it out, but in the end, it depends on how you anticipate your rate of energy depletion, how efficiently you swing the paddle, and how well you assess the conditions. You can get the drag coefficients for your hull and do all the calculations, but it comes down to the strategy of putting the pedal to the metal.
Craig and I use different paddling strategies, including different sq in blades, paddle lengths, techniques, as well as feathered vs. unfeathered, yet we get similar results. Steve gets similar results using greenland paddles. That shows that one size doesn’t fit all. Read the reviews and take your pick or invent something different.
Are you still asking about whether you should buy a Dta 12S or a Delta 12.10?
Rather than tell you (or give you a fish), I decided to answer your question (which could have been on the other thread), by suggesting how to figure out whether the 220 lb load rating was legitimate (tried to show you how to fish).
You probable figured out that I don’t play well with the other kids, but maybe, hopefully somebody new to the forum actually benefitted.