A “true high angle” reguires much more precision, and that requires endurance when you also paddle with a lot of effort. Training on precision may make you slower for some time.
But even if practicing “true high angle” doesn’t work out for improving your speed, your technique with a lower angle will probably benefit a lot from that (in my experience).
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It’s Ok, I do some things that the masters say to not do either, I use a push pull technique in addition to torso rotation and pulling the blade back. This seems to give me the most speed and makes sustainability a bit easier with a lower cadence. but again the pro’s say this is a no-no.
But it works for me. and that’s the rub what I do may not 100% work for Kayakjourney so I simply point out where his style is same as mine and for using that style where improvements within the mainstream thinking says is room for improvement. after that he’s going to need to pay attention to his own body and refine things where they work best for him.
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How tall are you? is your catch happening by your feet? this is about where anyone doing high angle should be hitting. My Ikleos is 230 cm and my catch is at my feet, but the bouyant blades foul me up so I’m sticking with the compression formed blades on my Whiskey, I’m giving up a ton of blade surface area but then again I’m not strong enough for the Ikleos. but the wiskey is about 4-6 cm short on my catch so upping my shaft another 5 cm will give me about the right reach. and maybe another .1 mph gain for no additional work. I have compared my 220 vs my 225 and that about the speed gain I see going 5 cm longer.
But on the other hand going too long then has the reverse effect, as I noted with my 240 cm paddles.
I’ve monitored apps that report currents and haven’t been convinced because I circled the buoy and found the outflow was over 3 mph as opposed to the reported .6 mph. Try stopping in the channel to see what your GPS indicates as you drift. Bracket the high/low and use the middle number.
Be careful drinking large quantities of water when exercising strenuously. Same is true of eating, because you’re overtaxing muscles and need the bloodflow. Loading your digestion system diverts blood away from your muscles to process and absorb nutrients and water. Your body can’t really process more than 32 oz of water per hour, depending on weather. Excess will be passed as urine, which can be a problem in a kayak. Anything you eat on the two hour trip will only be available for the next trip.
There’s a difference between racing, paddling for recreation, and paddling to analyze technique or to compare paddles. As I mentioned to Craig, physiology and technique makes specific techniques more practical and efficient for different people. For example, I learned a specific paddling style to compensate for permanent damage to my left rotator cuff. That prevents raising my arm above level and limits forward or rearward reach. 20 years ago, I paddled high angle, reached higher peak speeds, sustained elevated speeds for short sprints, and had greater endurance. At 74 yrs old and strapped with a disability, my return to kayaking netted an average speeds of 2.9 mph (and a painful recovery after each trip). At the end of that first season, I managed to improve to 4.1 mph. The following seasons finished at 4.5 mph, 4.71 mph, then 4.77 and 4.84 mph in the 145 Tsunami. At the end of last season which finished four years, I finally matched my best time from 20 years ago with an avg speed of 5 mph over my test course in the 175 Tsunami. That’s a 24 inch wide kayak that many regard as a tub.
While each season typically starts at around 4.1 to 4.2 mph, this season started at 4.7 mph avg, and that was with a 260 cm paddle. You have to find what works for you. It has taken me 4 seasons over the same test course to apply various techniques, using the same paddle in lengths between 240 cm and 260 cm. I also compared detailed techical discussions with @szihn regarding his experience with the 240 cm Kalliste, an Aqua Bound Eagle and hus honemade Greenland style paddles. His impression are vastly different than mine.
Rather than recommend a specific paddle or technique, you may find it more beneficial if you try to connect with the water through the paddle. As with an angler who can feel the bottom and the fish through a sensitive rod and the line, the boat is locked to your movement at the contact points. It responds to your input through the paddle. I feel there is no need to muscle the boat unless facing challenging conditions where you need to fight aggressive wind, waves or current. I alternately use the pegs or rest my legs flat on the bottom of the boat. My suggestions are not intended to increase your speed as much as to help you balance your energy output to maintain you performance potential for longer periods.
Unlike a power boat, you start a kayaking trip with a finite amount of energy storedbin your muscle groups, fat, and liver. Craig and Steve can manage far greater anerobic output than me, so we take a different approach. You possibly match their style.
Paddling into a current reduces your speed correspondingly, in that for every mph you face, your speed drops the same amount, up to the point where drag and the hull-speed-effect comes into play and begin to increase exponentially. In other words, if you paddle 4 mph on neutral flow, its very different than paddling 4 mph into a 2 mph current, because that is similar to paddling 6 mph, and resistance become exponential. Wind energy is different, because the effort always grows exponentially as wind speed increases. Riding a wave can be very different than riding a current, because the current carries your boat as long as you’re in the flow, whereas you only ride the wave as long as you’re on the face, then you slide down the back of the wave once it passes and wallow in the trough until the next one catches you.
If you want to conduct a pure test of speed, find a neutral area or a straight course that, for example, pits you against conditions on one track and with them on the return. Limit your breaks to precise internals so it doesn’t skew your average speed from one trip to the next. Avoid taking more fluid than your body can process between the breaks. Take breaks at set intervals (I like 2.1 mile intervals because it breaks my course up evenly, that interval also changes my effort from going with or against condition, and that is when I need water to hydrate). Consequently, I can see a direct relationship between the effect of conditions on my performance.
The impact of conditions is readily apparent on the graphs, both in terms of speed and tracking. I can see at a glance where I was fighting conditions or taking advantage of them. Leg 1 and 3 are essentially the same conditions, as are Leg 2 and 4.
Leg 1 and 3 are assisted conditions. However, notice how the first 15 minutes of the trip is about .2 to .3 mph slower; then it peaks until the first break down spike. Compare the legs to the orange 4.71 line, you’ll see the assisted and unassisted legs virtually split the average speed (the first 15 minutes is intentionally below the projected average, starting high, then it degrades slightly, until it resembles the legs where I fight the conditions; I establish a proposed trip average speed for the trip in the first 5 minutes based on conditions). Also note that the finish leg is slightly above the average speed of the 2nd leg - that shows I still had reserve anerobic energy left in my arms, shoulder, and back.
I also analyze specific intervals where I focused intently on form. Two areas between white lines were an effort to maintain 4.71 mph (average speed that I anticipated for the trip). One interval was assisted by conditions, while the other was against conditions. Yet I managed to stay on the 4.71 line for around 8 minutes each direction, which shows me it’s not more a matter of energy management than speed to control fluctuation. Rather than take advatage of an assist on the easy leg, I use that period to rest. What I believe many GPS users miss are the nuances of the charts, which is as valuable as a heart rate monitor.
Many paddlers believe that stomping the pegs while pushing and pulling the paddle is the secret to speed. It is for short durations - some can do it, but I can’t, because it depletes finite energy stores that can’t be replenished. For example, notice the little spike at the end of the first tight 4.71 mph segment. The spike is followed by a drop. That shows how I was able to maintain a solid 4.71 mph speed, but that little up spike took an equal amount of rest before my aerobic phase kicked in. It would’ve been better if I had waited to accelerate above the average speed, by waiting 20 minutes rather than 15 minutes (my aerobic transition occurred after the white line on the blue course track).
The red lines show the extreme range throughout the trip, of about .8 to .1 mph. Going into the conditions or with conditions gave me about a +/- .4 mph interference.
What I did notice with the 260cm paddle was a distinct drop of 4 to 10 spm, but I never manages to stay so near a targeted speed for around 8 minutes whether withnor against current. I believe the longer the paddle stayed in the water, the greater control I have.
Comparing your 107 sq in Ikelos 210 cm paddle to the 99.7 sq in Kalliste 260 cm, the Kalliste has 9.9 inches more reach. The flatter angle means just under 19.8 inches total reach from catch to exit, without increasing the transition from the release at the exit to the catch.
Depending on how the paddling effort is managed, the paddle resistance can be significant, especially if you calculate the period of time the low angle paddle remains in the water and the short transition.
107 sq in × 55 spm = 5, 885 per minute
99.7 sq in × 68 spm = 6,779 per minute
If I can condition myself to reach 72 spm, I can improve speed, but i need to develop a greater level of coordination:
99.7 sq in × 72 spm = 7,178 per minute.
99.7 sq in x 76 spm = 7,577 per minute
With both the 240 and 250 cm, I can hit 72 to 80 spm, but I have less reach (10 cm is 3.93 inches or about 2 inches per side.
Only you can interpret your charts, but I recommend that you analyze the energy output and look at the peaks and drops. Most of all, notice how your energy/speed balance is more consistent in the front of the trip, and it degrades linearly as the trip goes on. Flatten your output across the trip. You are otherwise very consistent. Try dropping your speed expectations a few tenths for the first 20 minutes. Keep your breathing under control, and you will notice a type of second wind feeling once you warm up into the anerobic mode. Anticipate an average trip speed of .2 mph higher, then bracket that as your goal. Don’t worry about going faster. Focus on +/- .2 mph above and below the target. Next trip, tweek what you learned, and add .05 to .1 mph to your strategy. Don’t chase speeds peaks, but let current carry you without overexerting. Efficiency isn’t about going fast. It’s about energy conservation. If you’re only going a few miles, you should have adequate energy stores to push to the limit.
I agree completely. Until we actialy paddled together, the description of your technique baffled me. I believe both you and Shadepine have evolved very effectively from whitewater to sea kayaking. You have a very high capacity for hanging in the anerobic zone, but you also have a very consistent stroke, despite some glitches from some broken body parts.
Other members undoubtedly monitor stats to a great degree, but you are one of the few who share the details. Even though we have opposite paddling styles, reviewing your HR track, oxygen levels, GPS speed graphs and seeing the ratio of aerobic/anerobic phases, as well as where they occur in relation to the speed fluctuations help me understand and interpret the speed peaks and valleys.
I understand why other paddlers don’t have any interest to get so deep into the weeds. However, while some kayakers tote loads to go camping, ride waves, or paddle to observe the habitats, you race and I seek efficiency. By now, the disinterested have probably learned to ignore my posts. Whether Ive assessed my charts and graphs accurately, or . . . whatever, the information is there for scrutiny. All I can add is that your outpouring of info has been a benefit to me. I hope Kayakjourey can make sense out of at least a part of it.
In parting, I can say that I may not be as fast as some, but for a four-eyed fat old man in a wide boat, I managed to figure out how to compensate for my impairement and learned how to isolate the arthritis in my left shoulder so it doesn’t becone aggravated or cause pain.
Not semantic, but a good point. One reasons low angle paddlers yaw excessively is that the paddle arc follows through to make a complete sweep stroke. A full arc is efficient as a sweep, but as it tracks toward the hull, it passes through the power range while it places the next power blade more over the hull and further away from dropping into the catch.
A longer paddle allows the power stroke to travel more outward and to the rear, rather than towards the hull. The best length for the paddle will place the forward blade outboard of the gunnel so it can drop. mmediately into a clean effective catch. That not only helps to maintain a higher cadence, but it also reduces the transitional lag between the exit and the catch
High angle is more powerful, but it uses a great deal of anerobic energy. For short durations up to around two or three miles, the paddler can afford to waste that energy, because any energy stores remaining at the finish line is just wasted energy anyway.
My approach is always to leave the stored muscle glycogen intact until the end of the trip. The logic being that you can never be certain of the real limits of your reserves or when conditions call for you to make haste. Emptying your tank at the end of a trip lets you rebuild stronger, and even if you do burn out somewhere during the last 2 miles, they don’t have to go as far to retrieve your limp body.
I am slightly above 5’3. My paddle blade goes past my feet. I have my foot peg closer to my body to allow my knee/thight to angle up. It helps with the push motion and as well as with my rolls. I do feel that this 210cm paddle is a bit larger as I do feel that there’s a lot of high airtime.
New perspective
Another paddle evaluation video -
Both trip was kept short and with influencing weather conditions of strong wind and currents. So when I look slow and tired, well I am when there’s a 20mph+ wind blowing against me as well as strong currents against me. Plus I did some rolling practices before I made the paddling run.
In watching the rear perspective, I feel like I’m not doing a windmill type motions effectively. Looks very sloppy from the rear perspective. And it looks like I’m bending the pulling arm too much. Thoughts on this part with the arm bending? And maybe I am keeping the blade in the water a tad too long also.
PS - You can hit PLAY on both videos and it plays both simultaneously. Both trips are on different days and slightly different conditions but that shouldn’t matter too much to get an idea of the complete paddle stroke.
Also, I do look like I’m working hard. I think the paddle is a bit big for me and it does require strengths to move a lot of waters. But this is also the reason I want the biggest paddle blade reasonably to develop my strength. I can always switch back to my smaller high angle Werner Cyprus paddle once I have my strength built up reasonably. Been hitting the weights at home as well for the past 1 year so been conditioning out a lot my muscles.
I think I have my finger on what’s going wonky with your stroke.
Now if I can only put words to what I am seeing that make sense.
your paddle transition, where you switch from left to right if you look at it in the center that center point of the paddle crosses at your forehead, this indicates to me that you high angle is a bit too high (where you are holding your paddle.)
the point where that cross transition should be happening should be between your shoulders and chin. basically slightly above your shoulder line.
Look at 14:23 you can see more of what I am trying to articulate.
So are you saying my paddle is too long for me? Or you’re saying my hand position is not centered? Looking at my rear perspective video, it does not look like I am doing much torso rotation even though I feel like I am rotating them.
I noticed my hand positions are not centered. It always seem to slide to one side. Sometimes that’s triggered by weather conditions where I keep naturally gravitating my hand position to shift to either have more added power or control to the side where I can extend the paddle to a sweep or just more longer thrust to help with the propel to keep the kayak centered.
My skeg has been non-functioning but I’m thinking maybe if I fix that, it should help keep the boat track better. The boat tracks very well without the skeg but could be a lot better also with it.
No I’m not saying that it’s too long, but now that you mention it, at a tad over 5’3" running a 210 it may be a bit long.
I’m 6’3" and I only run a 225, though I’m probably optimal at 227, so I’m thinking 230 might be the all around better choice for me.
what I’m saying is where you hold your paddle “height” seems to be at about you filchrum maybe a bit above. so when you make a stroke you paddle midpoint is crossing your body somewhere at or about your nose.
If you were riding a Harley I’d say you have a set of ape hangers. however from the MSF (instructor) we know that above your shoulders you lose control.
So what the hell does that have to do with paddling, well in cycling control is the amount of force you can apply to your bar ends to overcome centrifugal force of the wheel.
your paddle center-line crosses your body too high, it should be somewhere lower between your chin and shoulder line. in the video I posted he’s paddling high angle, but in a rec boat so his body crossing is lower by about 1-2" in a narrower boat it’ll be higher.
I cross my body on each stroke right at about the base of my throat to my adams apple.
so I guess what I’m saying you are holding your paddle just a tad high even for high angle.
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@PaddleDog52, while looking back over this thread and reviewing content, I came across this post where you pointed out inconsistencies in my calculations:
I tried to find my original post to sort out the reason for the inconsistencies but acknowledge that you were correct to question the inconsistency.
It appears that I inadvertently deleted a string of content while proofing. That merged general trip strategy with specific details of one trip. However, the confused content is hard to sort out without finding the original post. At this point, explaining my confused post is less important than retracting my rude reply to you which was inexcusable.
Former sprint athlete here, also instructor, IT or ITE for multiple disciplines. Trained under several national team coaches.
First, that is the worst possible video to draw a conclusion from. Even from that angle I can see that you are not rotating, which means that you are not capitalizing on the most powerful inches of your stroke, or really moving the boat with the appropriate muscle groups. Second, that top hand drops - you are dragging your paddle - not a clean exit.
The entire push / pull aspect that is part of your thought process - misguided. Think lower. Think medial gluts. Thing lower core. That is where the power comes from. Get your hands out of your stream of consciousness.
Ivan’s video are worth studying. As other suggested: instruction. However very, very few instructors - unless their credentials include national championship podiums and national team slots - that will be truly qualified to teach an efficient forward stroke. The technique that I see exhibited in a lot of on-line video makes me throw up a bit in my mouth.
Others on this forum have indicated that your top hand is too high. My presumption is that they have never competed at a national or international level. I’m not seeing that at all. Watch videos of athletes racing Olympic Sprint as your model.
Finally, you best Source of the Truth will be national team coaches. There are several Centers of Excellence around the country. You could probably find them with a Google search. Go pay for an hour of coaching and video analysis per day, over four days, with another hour doing purposeful practice (as defined by Dr Anders Ericcson) on your own. The OTCs at Chula Vista, Placid come to mind. The sprint club out of Gig Harbor, WA and the Washington Canoe Club on the Potomac are others. Bill Endicott is also in the DC area. He also knows how to move a boat.
Good luck.
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“…the paddle crosses at your forehead, this indicates to me that you high angle is a bit too high.” Why? have you spent much time watching sprint athletes? They are the Source of the Truth as far as a forward stroke.
That video you liked to… Best reserved for rec paddlers in short, squat boats. Not at all a performance lesson.
Craig - curious as to your background. Have you raced ICF?
Thank you! That’s exactly what I needed to hear. I completely understand everything you said. My kids in their rowing team are coached by a national level coach in a rowing team that reaches the national level. And I can see the discipline in their daily practices.
Maybe at some point I can get my local kayaking club to bring in a national coach as you suggested. We have brought in coaches to teach a lot of various advanced skills with kayaking but none on a forward paddle stroke.
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Where are you located? I could probably recommend someone or at least provide a bit of direction.
raced ICF nope, however…
from their home page
if you take a look at every ski pictured, their point where in their paddle crosses their body is…
wait for it shoulder height.
Kinestethics is Kinestetics, the body only works in certain ways. so It doesn’t matter if it’s a rec-boat or a Surf-Ski the technique will be same=same Just in a rec-boat the body cross as I stated (I wonder if reading comprehension is a thing.) would be lower due to the wider boat. and in a narrower boat would be higher.
I race every year, in any local events I can find and have taken 1st, on a 15 miler from Walnut St. on the Schuylkill to Walnut St on the Delaware. I’ve Taken Second Overall in class on a 10 Mile run on the Susquehanna, and 6 overall beating a Epic V10 (that was the crowing achievement.) lately due to age I’ve only be participating in the 3 mile runs, but I’ve consistently placed #1 in class, and 4th overall. so Not quite the idiot you think .
In my time with three different national team coaches, almost daily video analysis, and overseeing all national championships and team trials in the US for paddlesport’s NGB, chin to eyes are stressed. And every body is different, so yes, kinestetics are kinestetics, provided that the proportions of everyone’s bodies are identical. It will totally matter if it is a rec boat or not, as you said.
In looking at the pic that you posted there is one paddler that is doing it for max efficiency. Top looker’s left. White boat with orange graphic. The others are a bit of a train wreck - sitting back, no rotation - although this still is but one point in time.
If you are in the Mid-Atlantic I’d encourage you to look into training out of the Washington Canoe Club. They are a US Team Center of Excellence and have put athletes in the Olympics every year since I think 1936. Hanging there for a few days will expose you to an entirely different caliber of training.
I’m way too old for for breaking my style. I paddle now Touring Class Kayak, but my style is a complete hybrid of WW where I did most of my paddling and transitioned into Touring boats, and thought It’d be fun to compete in some of the races around.
I have shit rotation due to fused spine, so I run full on upper body strength and endurance conditioning.
To work out if I’m running 3 miles I make sure I can pull a kayak stroke on our cable machine with 15-20 LBS for 30 minutes straight. If I’m training for 10 miles, I do the same for 2 hours. It’s not ideal but with a straight bar from the other cybex, it gives me the ability to do replicate a high angle stroke, you could also replicate a low angle. When I get out on the water I track Speed/Course/O2 and heart rate. The goal there to stay aerobic. but at 60+ If I can beat some of the younger kids I’m doing alright.
I’ve run my Touring boat over a 3 mile course at 6.2 mph(best) and 5.9(worst.), and 5.1 over the 10 miles course, and 5 even on the 15 miler.
but It think it’s funny you said these guys are shit form as this was taken directly from the ICF 2025 ICF CANOE OCEAN RACING WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.
but who am I to judge.