Looking for tips to paddle faster

Most people keep their heads looking forward to where they are going and not rotating their heads with their torso. However, turning your head with your torso should not affect your stroke. Your paddle position in a forward stroke should eventually become ingrained in muscle memory such that you do not have to be constantly watching your paddle position.

Adjusting your stroke to maintain a course should be automatic and intuitive.

Ideally you are pulling the kayak forward, not pushing your paddle back through the water.

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I had an instructor Wayne H in a 2-day session going over various things and he taught that we should be scanning left and right while paddling meaning we should be rotating our body+head. Are you sure our heads should not be rotating?

Iā€™m not looking for what most people do b/c I see most people paddle incorrectly and get tired out quickly (and not maintaining a good cadence to go long and a reasonably fast pace). My original goal last year when I posted this is to go 5mph over a 2hour period. I am getting closer. I can now paddle 4.5mph more consistently in a 2hour period but having trouble maintaining 5mph. This morningā€™s paddle, I was going for burst of 5.5mph (per Strava) but I could not maintain it well. Ended up at 4.3mph but that 4.3 is misleading b/c I stopped a lot to adjust my camera and just re-orienting my positions.

Obviously you want to maintain situational awareness and not keep your head rigidly staring forward, especially if there is boat traffic or other hazards. However, I do not see any reason to be constantly scanning right and left with every stroke. Enjoy yourself, relax, and look around when paddling, but watch where you are going.

Your head position should be irrelevant to the efficiency of your forward stroke. Proper torso rotation is the key to strength, endurance, and efficiency.

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But to rotate your torso properly, your head is going to be forced to turn with it. Because right now from my videos, it does not look like I am rotating my body much.

Your head only has to follow your torso if you keep your neck rigid in relation to your torso. Again, what you do with your neck should not affect your stroke. Feel free to do whatever you are comfortable with.

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R
stevens15, is correct and has never given inaccurate info. Youā€™re instructor is incorrect.

I believe @anon47962293 is suggesting that you get rid of tension and try to sense what your paddle is doing. Consentrate on keeping the paddle resistance and move the boat forward. There is a pervasive sense that the harder you pull the paddle, the faster youā€™ll go. Although true, its important to understand that any rearward travel of the paddle is wasted energy that you canā€™t recover. To illustrate my point, I believe @PaddleDog52 suggested to plant your paddle near a leaf or a floating object and you should see the blade remain in the same relationship to the object through the power stroke. The angle will change, but the proximity should remain the same. That shows how your boat is moving and not the paddle.

So I am certainly NOT the person who ought to be giving advice on paddling form since I have lots of ingrained bad habits and am naturally a sloucher. I do believe however that I can improve. To improve my own torso rotation I do a series of drills to help- I straighten my arms out and over emphasize the waist rotation and bring the stroke back beyond the hip a bit. I lose some efficiency in that position but it does seem to help with rotation when I go back later to a shorter stroke.

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@Jyak, I used to routinely hit 28, and 30 mph in my Dancer, and Mirage back int he day so it is possible with the right current and river. even with an all day 3mph boat.

Of course, I was sending it and myself off a 30ft waterfall. (Boof.)

Thankfully my WW days are behind me Iā€™m too old for that sh*t.

You can also hit some good speed on the Ocoee, when they do a dam release. :slight_smile:

But I would disagree with Paddledog, regarding his statements, if youā€™re on a lake under ideal conditions (No wind.) measured speed is measured speed period hard stop since youā€™ve eliminated all other factors. And a GPS reading of Speed in conditions, especially if you paddle with then against, say tooling down a river, the Average speed going to be the speed. Again period hard stop, that just basic physics.

I was saying slow down, relax and pay attention to what your body is doing in relation to the boat and paddle. Focusing so much on the paddle is, in my opinion, one of the issues here - hence the comment about body - boat - blade. Integrating those three things is more difficult at speed.

Slowing down isnā€™t about sensing what your paddle is doing or about where youā€™ve planted it. That single focus is what the meditation paddles remove from the equation. Intentional paddling, often with eyes closed, allows a quiet mind to open to the relationship of all the moving parts that we need to coordinate. Once that relationship has a body feel, or some muscle memory, speed can be introduced to better effect.

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Iā€™ve never misrepresented any paddling experience or accomplishments. While someone could misrepresent my post as braggadoshious, I woukd consider thst flattery, because I donā€™t consider it as beyond the reach of any normal paddler. That is reinforced by the lack of any rush to endorse my technique. I clearly get enough detractors. Thatā€™s fine. My target audience is definitely not you or other racers. I donā€™t race. Iā€™m simply suggesting an alternative for people with gimp shoulders. One thing is certain, if you have a a satisfying technique, you donā€™t need my advice. That doesnā€™t mean some other member wonā€™t be able to adapt some suggestion.

Excuse my error. You simply keyed a unrelated thought. I should have read your comment more closely. So readers should disassociate my comment from yours. My comment stands in contrast to yours. I do understand and donā€™t disagree with the merit of your post.

Iā€™ve paddled with you and youā€™re fast. I donā€™t fully understand your technique but results are results you kept up with me easily so no complaints Iā€™m just trying to understand the mechanics of your paddling style and the nose deflection.

I donā€™t really see this doing high angle but then again I would suspect its minimized since the power is applied much closer to the boat. It also may have to do with the 60 deg feather, where I control boat course in each stroke by slightly canting the blade off perpendicular that corrects for thrust on that side of the boat.

Donā€™t ask me to explain how I do, because Iā€™m not sure I understand all the kinesthetics myself.

What I do know is you paced me with a more relaxed stroke and as much as I try to duplicate I canā€™t.

Now my boy can duplicate what you showed him and surprisingly slip into high angle when he wants to pour on the steam. Now if only he work on his endurance,.I think heā€™s possibly faster than I am. Ahh the vigors of youth.

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Youā€™re a sprinter with a sprinters physique. We were cruising, not sprinting, and you kept hanging with your son. Iā€™d be pleased beyond description if your son learned to out perform both of us - you as a sprinter and me for cruising. That would be our legacy, so Iā€™m happy to heart he pick up a tip. I know he didnā€™t like my 240 cm Kalliste, but he isnā€™t the first persin to tell me that. I have no doubt heā€™ll be a dynamo with your coaching.

I addressed the yaw issue in the last post. Iā€™m in the boat and know what it does, you see that I donā€™t have any tracking issue. Nothing matters beyond that. You also notice that I didnā€™t offer you any lessons on paddling, because that was the second time I watch you paddle, but the first time I paddled with you. There is nothing I can offer except keep doing what you do. I knew that before we went out.

Discourse has benefits. Even though we have different paddling techniques, we make it work for our physique. Hopefully your son adapts both styles. I misunderstood a post, mainly because it resonated with a recent phenomenon that I noticed about sensitivity to the paddle feedback. My bad, but it keyed me into paying more attention to paddle feedback.

Regarding my paddle stroke, aside from paddling with you and your son, i find that I can typically swing one stroke for ever three to four stokes from other paddlers to hang with them. If I could swing high angle, youā€™d be my first choice as a mentor.

If you can turn your head without the torso turning canā€™t you turn your torso without your head turning? :laughing:

Like driving anything look where you want to go most of the time.

Stop worrying about speed and concentrate on a smooth flow. Speed will be a byproduct. Then you can make a fast flow.

Smooth back Ikelos should enter the water clean with no noise or splash. Timing entry to match your speed is key.

Let me clarify, and Iā€™m getting int the weeds of the mechanics of this.

Do yuo this the yaw is caused by the longer paddle stroke with the blade placement further away? So would a even longer paddle make this more pronounced or not due to more torque. Since I cant paddle like this, I can only guess.

Iā€™m just seeking some thoughts on this since for touring my son does the low angle so he may benefit from a longer paddle, However I donā€™t want to affect his tracking.

for his high angle racing, he should be in a 220-225 all day. Unfortunately heā€™s be using that for Touring at low angle. So Iā€™m thinking he may benefit from something longer.

He definitely like the high angle blade shape over the low angle. And I find from watching him that you can paddle a high angle blade either high or low, but a low angle blade can really only be paddled low.

EDIT- I do apologize when you said 5 deg yaw I placed it in my mind as 5-10 degree side/Side not 5deg side 10 overall. That is the same as what I think the boy is seeing, and the Skeg nullifies that. (2 clicks of skeg, out of 6.)

Regardless of paddle or paddling angle, ideally you want the entire blade of the paddle in the water for the majority of a forward stroke, no more and no less, without hitting the side of the boat. You do not gain anything by dragging the paddle shaft through the water. By the same token, you lose efficiency if the whole blade is not in the water. Any paddle can be used in a high or low angle, but different paddles are optimised for a certain style in terms of blade shape and ideal length.

A skeg or rudder will counteract yawing but it still wastes energy. Iā€™m not sure which wastes more energy, the yawing or counteracting it, but itā€™s probably close either way.

@rStevens15 Iā€™ve run my Tempest 180 with and without skeg and it didnā€™t seem to make a heap of the difference either way, logically there must be more drag since you got a thing sticking down into the water but my GPS which tracks to two decimal places really couldnā€™t differentiate. Maybe we need Three places after the decimal.

Suffice it to say itā€™s not like my Tsunami if I drop the rudder I immediately lose .1 to .2 Mph. granted thats not earth shattering but it could cost when doing a 3 mi race. It definitely cost me second place. The guy who beat me ran 5.9 mph the entire course. I was neck and neck with him to the first turn he pulled the skeg, I pt the rudder in for the first turn, and he pulled away from me there. I paced him after the second turn but he had two boat lengths on me and at the second turn same thing happened he now had 4 boat lengths on me and my average for the course was 5.8 mph

He just never lost any speed in the turns and thatā€™s what killed me. , could have possibly been a tie for second.

Good question, and I think you are right.

According to John Winters, a rudder can add up to 2% resistance (and much more if used too much) and a skeg about 1% while preventing yaw.
Yaw can as much as 5% to the resistance of a boat when paddling forward.
Now if you design a boat for a rudder (as the Sprint Kayaks are) the net effect will be benefecial for such a design (or should be at least :wink: .
If the rudder is just an afterthought for convenience, this may be a whole other matter.

Also if you can only paddle straight with a rudder or skeg, your paddling technique may cause more resistance.
So although my kayak is designed to be used with a rudder, I paddle a lot with my rudder up, just to train my paddling skills to not waste to much energy.

Easier to get together in person. I dont mind driving up and we can go to your local lake.

I can explain the way I execute my low angle stroke, but that doesnā€™t mean other paddlers would benefit. You for example would probably suffer a setback, even though you might benefit for distance paddling. After our initial lengthy conversations about your race statistics, it was clear that your technique is finely tuned. The day we picked up the 180, you demonstrated your stroke and, frankly, I couldnā€™t even follow your feathering which gave equivalent exit to my low angle.

I canā€™t compare my paddling to anyone else, because youā€™re the first person I paddled with who could pace with me. My sister (6 years older) could pace with me. Our times were consistently only about .3 mph slower if we went out together, but times fell by a full mph if she missed trips. While sprinting is raw physical power coupled with sound technique, I believe cruising paddling speed has more to do with the efficiency and consistency of your stroke than physical power. @szihn reinforced my conviction by describing his paddle outings with his wife. I also noticed that at times, my sister could outpace me to the extent that I couldnā€™t catch her. For example, if she heard the rumble of thunder. I notice from folliwing her that her form became hyper consistent. She weighs 100.lbs less than me, so she draws 10 gallons less water - less drag has to relate to more speed. Two features are apparent from her stroke. She relies exclusively on shoulders and arm muscles and overreaches. Coupled with starting too fast at the beginning of a trip, she runs out of energy by the end of the trip. Another issue is she hasnā€™t learned to track straight (overreaching causes inconsistency).

I believe tracking issues with low angle are due to the stroke executed as an sweep. The beginning of a low angle stroke pushes the bow away from the stroke, while the stern pull the stern to keep up that momentum during the second part of the arc. That induces the yaw. By starting the catch close to the boat, then following the natural arc.until the paddle reach the apex at 90Ā°, rather than continuing the arc through a sweep stroke, depart on a tangent at about 30Ā° away from the boat and exit in a slice upward and back. Paddling with you, I noticed how you achieved the same clean exit that doesnā€™t lift and flick water (a pint weights 2 lbs Ɨ 60 spm = 120 lbs Ɨ 60 mins = 7,200 lbs if my math is correct). If thatā€™s 3,600 strokes per hour.

Much about paddle technique depends on physique, endurance, ability to perform aerobically vs anerobically, and coordination. Watching a paddler one mile away, itā€™s evident I will catch them by the choppy stroke. This topic was beat to dead previously, but I steadfastly believe there is a big difference between sprinting and distance paddling. Water has weight and cannot be compressed. It can easily be moved aside, but it does creates drag. So how do you move the wide boat through water, while using a narrow blade in the same water to move the boat.

It seems to me, sprinters take advantage of the weight of water. They mitigate it by using a narrow, long boat that reduces resistance, drag, and bow wave propagation. The narrow boat slices through the water with less pressure against the side of the boat. On the other hand, the paddle takes advantage of the weight of water. When the paddle stroke slaps the water hard, there isnā€™t time for the water to part. Although itā€™s wasteful of energy, hard on joints and can only be sustsined for a limited time, the interval is short enough for an althletic person to sustain the stroke for the duration of a race. I donā€™t know for sure but canā€™t imagine sustsaining that physical output for long.

Craig, you donā€™t fully match the speeds of competitors in sleek racing boats, but you push a 24 inch wide boat that weighs 69 lbs in hot pursuit. The effect the boat has on the water is evident. When the Tsunami beaches under speed at the end of a trip, a wave rushes past to return equilibrium caused by the water displaced by passing boat. You are pacing with paddlers who deflect only a fraction of that water.

For every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction. I though another post was on to something, but I was wrong. Two ways to reach speed: one is through shear force, but finesse is more efficient. For your needs, power is most effective. My method is a more balanced approach that relies more on fine motor skills than power. It starts by being balanced and concentrating on a clean splash free entry, then gradually building a rythem. If the Kalliste is held with a proper grip, it will find center; so it doesnā€™t have to be held very tightly. Look at the narrower asymmetrically shaped blades; the narrow blades reduce torque around the axis of the shaft because the bottom edge of the blade contacts water first. The wider high angle blade might give more catch, but it add torque to fatigue your grip. Although the difference between a low angle and high angle blade is minor, each paddle was designed with different performance goals.


This comment may arouse the ire of some, but I can only suggest that a company would not introduce two near identical model, with the only differnce between the two designs being the blade length and width. Both paddles can obviously be used interchangeably, but to suggest a preferance for using a paddle for the unintended paddle angle suggest one of three possibilities: arrogance, lack of paddling sensitivity, or ignorance. That topic is best debated with someone who designs paddles.

The Kalliste is designed with minimal dihedral which reduces stability, but the spoon shape from the tip of the blade to where it attaches to the shaft helps stabilize the stroke, if you find the proper sweep track that aids stability. I think it also aids slipage without compromising power. I suspect the wing paddle shape perform a similar, if not the same function. Aqua Bound paddles are similar to the Werner Camano, which are designer with more dihedral. I find that the sensitivity and balance are very different between the two designs, and they require a different technique. I do know the Kallliste is more efficent and can hit higher max spikes consistently. Look at the profile. The Camano actually has an insignificant one sq in larger blade, but it probably creates more aeration which robs power under a load. Compare cross sections.


The Aqua Bound paddles are a great value and the design is more forgiving for beginners, but as they are very similar to the Camano design, I believe they would suffer the same performance shortcomings. I used Aqua Bound Manta Rays and Sting Rays with nylon reinforce blades, hybrids and carbon paddles, then switched to a Werner Camano before two Kallistes. Use the paddle you feel comfortable with.

If you keep your head centered, shifting the hips can induce edging with each stroke. You can pressure your feet on the foot pegs, but I donā€™t find it necessary. The edging is curtail before it causes overcorrection. Since my cadence falls naturally between 72 spm and 80 spm, Iā€™m edging at that rate. My rate of yaw isnā€™t significant enough to warrant concern, especially when I find myself restraining cadence to one stroke for several strokes needed by the average paddler. Conditions cause more need for corrections than the paddle stroke, which is where the plus/minus 5Ā° enters. Paddle length doesnt change anything, because I donā€™t employ a sweep stroke. Detractors of low angle style of paddling donā€™t execute ot properly. Does it yaw more that high angle - I donā€™t really care?!

When bicycling. You can plant your ample ass on the saddle, stomp on your pedals and yank on the handlebars, or you can spin. Gyroscopic forces help you track, but in a boat, every move you make influences balance. Reaching forward changes your center of lateral resistence. Itā€™s bad enough that left and right side strength is unequal, so overreaching has to be even more unequal. It puts muscles in opposition. Imagine a bugee cord on your body which creates one pound of tension with each reach. Multiply by 60 spm by 60 minutes by 4 hours. Instead of focusing on balanced paddle stroke and consistency, your body is doing contortions pulling, pushing. stomping, shifting, lifting, reaching, overextending, and lifting water. By keeping the high angle paddle upright and parallel to the keel, you shift mass. Passing your arms across the chest crushes the rib cage restricting breathing. Does that interfere with your power generation. If you still breath naturally, the answer is no. Thinking about where and when you will execute an exit and flinging water, then focusing on dropping the blade 92 inches to obtain a clean catch is sketchy for accuracy.

Iā€™m not motivated to discuss yaw induced inefficiency of the low angle paddle stroke. Iā€™ve read the above advice on this forum, which I was told is not about paddling. I think your son will pick up proper high angle technique as well as an efficient low angle stroke if he follows us on a few trips; heā€™s already ahead of most. Thatā€™s the reason I kept circling back, to give him time to observe. I laughed when he said he canā€™t figure out how you execute your stroke. I agreed.

I had to adapt my stroke between the 145 and the 175. What works in the 145 only confounds efforts when combined with the rudder. I havenā€™t figured that out yet. Iā€™m not sure how it would work on a Tempest, but I do know someone with a 170 Tempest who could she light on that.