Probably rule over wrangling
Doesn’t make it right, but it’s easy to administer.
The “crisis” is not the boats.
The real problem, I believe, is the lack of support for safety training. Box stores, like, e.g., Dick’s, are not interested in telling their customers to take a safety course or in communicating the existence of such courses. And they are certainly not interested in subsidizing such instruction or the inclusion of a safety brochure with the boat. Rec boats are not inherently unsafe nor less safe than sea kayaks if used within safety guidelines.
Hiving off then?
I know where this is going, but hate to say it out loud. There’s going to have to eventually be two clubs for us instead of one. The trained sea kayakers will have to form their own club and the less keen, less fit and less equipped will continue on as before, under the original club mandate as laid out in our memorandum of association. I’d really hate to see that, but it appears that’s the way the wind is blowing.
Just thinking out loud.
Johnny MIller not Smith
– Last Updated: May-22-06 12:05 PM EST –
The organizer's name is Johnny MIller of johnnymilleradventures.com Johnny is a personal friend of mine, a fine organizer, and a fabulous white water/sea kayaker.
Just to be clear, the concerns about the state of things was NOT a comment about the week end, as I stated. They were about the larger large influx of new paddlers getting boats at K Mart not dealers.
Jed, what is kind of funny, ist that some of your comments during another discussion actually planted the seeds for us to discuss this later on in the weekend. You may not recoginze it but a few ideas in my post probably should have a foot note to you now that I reflect on it!
I am not sure why you say you have an alternate view Jed, as imo we are saying vitually the same thing!!!! OK, whatever! My methods, as stated are sharing, learning, a passion for the sport, and gentle self discovery without overwhelming people, guided experiences.
With the help of many great fellow paddlers in our area things are changing considerably. Still it remains a great challenge. We are neither throwing up our hands, blaming anyone, nor thinking we are all powerful or responsible. The middle road of active engagement is cooking along. Still powerfufl market trends and forces may simply over run this. IMO, just have to see.
Evan
Good point
This market pressure is part of the difficulty but perhaps unavoidable in our profit driven culture?
Yet another alternate view.
As most of you know from my postings I am a complete newbie. That being said, I also have taken quite a bit of instruction and done a bunch of research and practice on my own. This will continue. I am also a skydiving instructor and that needs to be known to help people know where my comments are coming from. I was attracted to kayaking, specifically because it is for everyone. Your idea of paddling and mine might be different and a third paddler probably has yet a different perspective. If someone buys a rec boat to poke about in local flatwaters fine. If someone wants a ww boat to run rivers fine. You don’t have to be a triathlete to enjoy the outdoors. Their are different levels of kayaking for differently able folks. While the idiots out there might buy the cheapest thing they can find and take it out to sea, I would expect that they are a minority. Most of the people you run into that are paddling a rec boat think that anything smaller than a Coast Guard cutter should be kept off the ocean. These people could concievable get in above their heads by accident, but they want to paddle in good conditions, in fair weather and close to the snakck bar. I have had to tell skydiving students that maybe they should take up golf or bowling, but I would bet that the majority of everyday people can find a place for themselves in kayaking. If you can walk, you can hike. If you can put on a PFD and pick up a paddle you can kayak. Know your limitations in either endeavor and you will be safe. It is not up to me or anyone else to judge and deem someone unfit because they don’t fit a certain definition of what a “kayaker” should be.
All we can do is try to guide people and steer them in the right direction. If someone does something stupid after that, then unfortunately they (and the rest of us) will have to live (or not) with the ramifications of their actions.
Training and education are the keys. Outdoor activity at any level will provide benefit to the participant. And lastly, the true idiots will ultimately leave the activity after scaring themselves silly or killing themselves off. Either way it will thin the herd.
Just my comments from the cheap seats.
Ed
1 Like
Blame
I suspect I will get hammered here, but as a long time instructor that has been involved in the industry in both manufacturing and retailing I do see a signifcant target for some blame. Manufacturers can build anything they want for any purpose they want, But I think that purpose should be clear stated ON the boat, so that retailers cannot misstate the uses of the product. Some manufacturers claim that it is the retailer that is the person that puts an inappropriate craft in the comsumers hands and yet they have not desire to support any standards what so ever regarding intended use of their product.
Retailers seem to an inverted ecomomy of scale wherein the bigger the retailer the less knowledgeable the sales staff.
To suggest that the comsumer is ultimately responsible for finding the relevant information about the products is suggesting that all the information available is correct, and all one has to do is read either the message boards or reviews to understand the validity of that suggestion.
I agree that a crisis is looming, and I think that the only solution is through education and I beleive that no one should be buying paddlecraft without the opportunity to be directed towards competent, professional paddlesport education. In addition, I think manufacturers should be required to state the intended purpose of each model clearly affixed to each boat and provide retailers with product information and access to staff training. Kind of like the tags on mattresses that must not be removed under penalty of law.
A more and more people take up the sport, the chances of drownings and near misses increases and with that increase we face 2 things; more regulation for paddlers and even more public perception of risk. The solution is available, but as with most solutions it takes some effort.
Falcon
attitudes & expectations
I don’t know that there’s any looming crisis, either. I do know that I’ve seen and known several people who were reasonably competent canoeists, who then bought either a rec boat, a WW playboat or a sea kayak and seemed to have checked their brains at the checkout counters. It seems that there are many people who assume that a more capable boat will make them more competent. Life doesn’t always work that way. I think more people ought to be more honest with themselves about their actual skill levels.
But, part of what fuels the mad rush to engage in activities beyond people’s skill sets, are attitudes by many paddlesports store employees, and way too many paddle clubs that flat water is somehow boring. It certainly doesn’t have to be. But, everytime some knowitall salesperson suggests that canoes or rec boats are boring, or will be quickly outgrown, the message they send is that flatwater pursuits are kidstuff. I say NONSENSE.
There seems to be a real industry attitude that to be serious about this hobby, one needs to be an adrenaline junkie. There is also an industry fueled level of expectations that a WW playboat makes one a WW paddler, or having the latest sea kayak makes one a sea kayaker. The ads and the hype tend to downplay the role of training and experience. Personally, I think the industry served the public better when it was focused on canoes, and kayaks were something of a niche market. (That’s not to say you can’t get in real trouble in a canoe, but folks tend to be more cautious in them.) But, the public is the driving force behind the industry shifts, as it’s sales that drive the beast. And the public has been led to believe that simply having a kayak enables them to do things that they wouldn’t do in a canoe.
Natural Selection is Working
When you think about it most of the boats get used three or four times and then they sit and decay in a back yard or garage. People discover how difficult they are to deal with when something bad happens and they never use them again. Check out some of the classifieds on Pnet for example.
My favorite add last week was for a Hobie peddle powered Kayak that cost ~1700 new. The ad said something like "This is the Ferrari of Kayaks, you are going to LOVE this boat. … towards the end of the ad it said Used Twice.
When the baby boomers move into complete inactivity the Rec boats will too.
education
is a beautiful thing and may save some lives here. Lets not bash the many paddlers who enjoy their boats in different habitats and for different reasons. Many of the rivers I paddle would be impossible to traverse in a seakayak as they require lots of pullovers and portages. Canoes and rec boats often make more sense in those situations and require skills appropriate for that habitat.
There certainly appears to be a level of elitism in many of these posts. Despite the few casualties each year it is an essentially safe sport. And isnt it all about recreation anyway?
Rec boat vs Rob Roy
I have to agree with Sing and the others who pointed out that bailing a rec boat is no harder than bailing a completely swamped canoe.
Take a classic Rob Roy into 3ft waves and you will have as much a problem as in a rec boat. The folks who venture too far from shore with insufficient flotation and with PFD’s lashed to decks are the problem - not the boat designs. At least if folks are exposed to self-recovery drills they may be more aware of their personal limitations.
Jim
The greater majority of people who buy
rec kayaks aren’t likely to attempt class III rapids. Most kayaks are sold to people based on their expressed use of the boat if revealed to the dealer at the time of purchase. Maybe some dealers don’t ask enough questions, but buyers have more savvy than you may think. I’d paddled a canoe for years when I bought my first rec kayak, but never a kayak. But, I had sense enough to keep to the shallows until I learned how to handle the kayak and what it would do. The ones who go hog wild into the sea or whitewater in a rec kayak may not what we want in the gene pool anyway.
12.3 LWL
– Last Updated: May-22-06 2:43 PM EST –
The eddyline website lists the water line (LWL) of the Merlin LT as 12.3. That's not "long" for a sea kayak.
"Tracking is often in the eye of the paddler". It's strongly correlated with length.
"within reason" People paddle in all sorts of conditions in all sorts of boats, sometimes, to great effect. That doesn't establish that a particular boat is generally recommended for a particular use.
There is a bit of judgement in the list. It's nearly impossible to be 100% correct because there are no clear distinctions between kayaks.
"I wonder if they would reject someone showing up in a Mariner Coaster because it was under 14'?"
Yes, they make that quite clear. If they think it's unsafe (even if they are incorrect about it), would you want them to ignore their safety rules to make a tour sale?
It's also possible that you could convince or demonstrate to them that your wife is a capable paddler in that boat. (They are reasonable people with a lot of experience.)
gene pool argument
– Last Updated: May-22-06 3:09 PM EST –
It's not that easy to dismiss mistakes...
1) Somebody ends up doing a rescue or body recovery, often at considerable risk to themselves.
2) Everybody has a family. Even people who make poor choices have people who love them.
3) Bad kayaking decisions, with well-publicized outcomes, can drive legislation.
4) Everyone who's NEVER done a dumb thing in a boat, raise your hand...
OK
– Last Updated: May-22-06 2:28 PM EST –
I've been reading this whole thread, trying not to get upset, but it has now gotten to the point where I feel I must chime in. And this is in answer to several posts, not necessarily the one to which it is attached.
Do you guys think you'll never get old? Just because you can't see yourself in a rec boat now, you don't know what you may want to or be able to do as you age. To say that the rec boats will go the way of the baby boomers is elitist and hogwash. People change; you'll find that out. I know I have positively no interest in what was all-consuming as a twenty-something.
As far as the whole marketing aspect, you make it sound that the problem is marketers pushing these boats on poor unsuspecting people who don't know what they really want. Maybe they've finally gotten the idea that there are many of use who have no desire to paddle the ocean, or class III whitewater, or whatever. Maybe they'e finally giving us what we want. With what I do with my yak, I'd never want some fancy expensive sea kayak. It wouldn't serve the purpose. It would be a hindrance. Perception (yeah, go ahead and flame me) offers a boat that is perfect for me, and I don't give a d--n if some of you guys think it's not legitimate. They make something I want.
I totally agree with the need for safety training. I also agree that there are folks who just don't grasp the potential for disaster if they take their boats into situations for which they or their boats are not suited or prepared. But to insult the segment of society that enjoys their boats differently than you do is elitist, immature and uncalled for.
I don’t disagree
– Last Updated: May-22-06 3:44 PM EST –
Thanks for the correction on Johnny's last name (I'm a freaking idiot that posted before I woke up)
It's not that I disagree with your post. Clearly from what you know of me it's not that I don't see the challenge. I just see it less as a problem than as reality that does both some good and some bad.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were incorrect in any way. I guess for me it's kind of related to risk homeostasis. The more we train the more (calculated) risks we take. It's all good.
I guess it was the "Looming Crisis" language that prompted me to respond with a slightly less-onerous perspective.
Cheers
See Gnatcatcher's post and you'll understand the reasoning for the language of my post. Yes we should all train and get education. But we have to choose our language and our thinking carefully, less we offend the very people we aspire to help / protect.
(Note, I'm not claiming or aspiring to be the great protector of all paddler's. I just want people to be able to have a choice and know their options and related risks.)
Deja Vu all over again
Somewhere in the deep dark archives of Paddling.net is a column I penned asking the same question.
Recreational craft should come with a huge warning sticker as to where NOT to take them and why.
Re: Two Thoughts
When…Recreational craft are now being sold thru BJs and at least 2 local WNY Wal-Marts, as well as Dicks and Gander Mtn. and a host of other department store outlets, the chance a first time buyer is going to buy from one of these (especially given one can get a stripped down perception america for under $300 thru these places)is probably 90%
It isn’t the second purchase that’s going to be the killer…It’s the first one.
Research?
Puleaseee…
Kayaks were around when I purchased the 13.5 america thru Galyans and while the sales person was (supposedly) an avid kayaker not once do I remember any advice being given as to where to paddle the craft or what limitations it had.
Yes, there are 100x more outfitters and experienced paddlers and sources for researching the right craft for whatever…
But tell that to the dozen or so folks (two with kids in the boat and one with a dog) who were merrily paddling large open cockpit recreational craft DOWN the lower Niagara from Lewiston to Ft. Niagara two weeks ago…(Lower Niagara is deep, with changing currents and is definitely COLD)These folks had on shorts and tees (although everyone save the dog had on pfds)
Horray !
As I was reading the responses I was getting madder and madder, but figured that if I said my two cents worth I would just get hammered by the “elitist” crowd.
There are very few kaykers that I know that didn’t start with an el cheapo rec kayak , and we all survived.
I used to take mine three and four miles out into that big forboding ocean that can and will swallow you up if you are not a decent swimmer.
I spent many a day paddling off the NC coast so far out that the only land marks were the tallest buildings.
I played with it and learned what it could do and what it couldn’t and how to get in it and get the water out of it, etc.
I surfed in it and had a ball, and still do.
I also used my head and would listen to weather reports bfore venturing far off shore and naturally would not go out in the winter in it.
I have read in the past of a few deaths that have been caused by stupidity, such as the two cape cod girls a few years ago, but I’ll bet that there are a lot more experienced sea kayakers that push their limits that have to be rescued than rec kayakers.
I sure would hate to see some do gooders start trying to regulate what boats can and cannot be sold or labeled for a back yard simming pool only.
Cheers,
jackL
Local, hands on instruction not always
available. I think that I have only two organized opportunities a year for any type of training in central Illinois. None of the dealers offer demos or training.
Don’t assume that everyone has access to hands on training for rescues and paddling skills.
I applaud all of you that do offer your time and energy to help beginners, as well as experienced paddlers that want to learn more, to increase their skills and safety in paddling sports.