speaking of safety,hatches,flotation
was there any problem with the rubber hatches on Wilderness Systems kayaks?
I was looking at the aft hatch cover on a two yr old Tempest and it can be lifted off with a pinky finger, one some new Tarpons,Pungos the edges lift up when the middle is pushed down.
youâll never get old?
Depends on what you mean by old.
The best sea kayakers I know are pretty much 50-70 give or take a couple of years.
The best whitewater kayaker I know is notably older than me - and Iâm in my early mid 50s.
Most of the folks I see attempting stuff in inapproprate boats are younger than I am.
I understand they have a rule
My comment about the Coaster was not that they might say no due to its condition nor that they are not very capable of discerning whether a boat is in good shape or not. In fact, I have no doubt they know very well that the Coaster is a capable boat. Rather I was trying to make the point that setting rules by something as arbitrary as length leads to irrational results.
Yes, the Merlinâs lwl is slightly over 12 feet which in turn is slightly over one foot shorter than say an Avocet. Not a huge difference. Short for a seakyak? I suppose, but what is the lwl of say a Rumor or a Vela. Too short to be seaworthy enough for a guided trip on the Hudson? I doubt it given its other aspects, but its their list. Its their business. They can make any rule they want for participating on their trips. However, as a general proposition, Iâm not sure how valid the list is for measuring what are the unsafe uses for any given boat on the list.
Itâs Not The Boat! Itâs The Boater!
The trouble comes when boaters do dumb stuff.
I have seen boaters do dumb stuff in cheap Rec boatsâŚand I have seen boaters do dumb stuff in expensive sea kayaks!
One quick point - statistics showâŚ
One thing I read recently:
Car safety people said that when they added seat belts to all cars, they assumed that deaths in car accidents would go down⌠but they didnât.
Then anti-lock brakes came in⌠and deaths still didnât go down (actually went up a little I believe).
What was the problem? People drove more dangerously when they felt that their car could handle it. They took more risks, because they heard they had anti-lock breaks (so they could stop faster right?) It said that people seem to even out their risk to be something their comfortable with⌠more safety features (/more safe boat) doesnât actually make them any more safe.
I think that while rec Kayaks certainly have limitations, I would bet that people would act even more recklessly if they had a better boat. You head 100 feet out from shore in your Rec Kayak⌠but someone yells at you for using the wrong kind. You buy a nice new sea kayak, and head out 2 miles. Either way, youâre risking your life. People tend to even out the risk themselves.
So I think the most important thing then, would be to just make sure that people are aware of what their Kayak can & canât handle. Beyond that, itâs their own responsibility to limit their risk.
I am already!
â Last Updated: May-22-06 5:12 PM EST â
"When the baby boomers move into complete inactivity the Rec boats will too" is the statement I take issue with. It certainly doesn't sound like it was written by someone our age. One's outlook on things often changes with age. Didn't mean to offend you - I was irked by the insinuation, and should have been a little more judicious in the way I worded things. I understand what you're saying.
Bayliners too?
OkayâŚ
âŚhave at a newbie with a thick skin.
Mineâs a Perception Carolina 13.5, on the NO list for sea/touring. I bought it when I had fewer than 3 hours paddling experience. I chose it partly on what I sometimes call the âsewing machine principle,â which is this: If you donât know much about sewing and you are looking for a machine, you can choose a cheap one to get a feel for whether youâll really use it before sinking a lot more money into a Pfaff or BerninaâŚor you can buy a good one right off the bat on the premise that you already have an interest and good tools matter. With sewing, I can almost promise that if you buy a $150 machine you will soon conclude (quite probably wrongly) that you hate sewingâŚbut it doesnât make sense to buy a $2400 machine if you are just starting out. So you find something in the middle, something with decent engineering so you can know that if you hate sewing, itâs not the machine, and something with decent resale value.
So, all right, sewing isnât particularly dangerous (I did run my finger under the needle of a friendâs machine once, necessitating the painful removal of inadvertent stitches). But I knew I wasnât going to enjoy paddling a clunky Islander from Costco. I couldnât afford the bestâŚbut I wanted the best I could afford. Not too long or heavy, good fit. I looked around, I read this and other boards, I talked to people and in the course of my research I paddled a boat I really liked.
SoâŚI bought one like it. Right away I joined a club and signed on for safety clinics. I always wear the PFD. I spent so much time sorting between âelitistâ and âeducatedâ viewpoints wrt clothing, trying to figure out if I could get away with less than a drysuit, that spring moved onâthe weather hit the 90s and it became a moot point.
I paddle on still water, near shore if Iâm alone, with a whistle and floats. On my own, I might paddle Fernan (you can swim to center from any point) or Hayden (20 mile circumference, narrow and long). I might join the club on Coeur dâAlene (big, narrow, long) but I canât see ever paddling on Pend dâOreille (big enough to have a resident submarine) in this boat, even in expert company.
And the ocean? Forget it.
Okay. Am I one of the stupid ones who will, if the world is lucky, drown in my own stupidity and remove myself from the gene pool? Am I a fairly reasonable person and maybe this NO-list boat is okay for the conditions Iâm using it in?
The ensuing discussion should serve as a good education for newbies like me. Iâm not going to defend myself; Iâm just the case to consider. I will not respond to anything except perhaps to direct questions regarding paddling habits/equipment for the purpose of having more information with which to pass judgement.
A rec boat ownerâs perspective
I bought my first kayak less than 2 weeks ago, so I am the newest of newbies. I chose a rec boat because of what I planned to do with it: paddle on local (small) lakes and easy rivers, and fish occasionally. This is basically what I have done in the past from a canoe. I didnât make an impulse buy at a big-box or chain sporting goods store, I bought the kayak from a paddle sports store that gave me good advice on what would be a suitable boat for the type of paddling I wanted to do. In fact, I was in their store, and a competitorâs, probably 8 or 9 times looking at kayaks and asking questions before I decided what to buy. As a result, I think I have a good feel for the limitations of my kayak, and more important, me. So I wonât try to take it where neither it, nor I, have any business being, whether thatâs on the ocean, or whitewater, just as I wouldnât try to hunt tigers with a slingshot. I think the key to the whole discussion here is education, but unfortunately many places that sell kayaks donât try (or donât have the ability) to give the buyer any, and many people who buy them arenât looking for any. An intelligent customer should be able to (1) notice that the various kayaks in the store look a lot different from one another, (2) realize that there must be a reason they arenât all the same, and (3) conclude from this that there is no âone size fits allâ model. Or maybe thatâs asking too much from the average consumer.
I can relate to the sewing machine
thing, my mother was a seamstress specializing in alterations. Before it was over with, she owned five standard sewing machines and seven specialized machines that would do only one or two things, but do them well. The rec kayakis like a standard machine, itâll do a lot of things, but not all of them well and some shouldnât be attempted. Mine is a fishing craft that I also paddle, a sea kayak isnât a good fishing craft in most waters, but if wanted to fish the bays or near shore, Iâd get a SOT. If I wanted to ply the seas, Iâd get a sea kayak, assuming there is one I can afford. There=in lies part of the problem, most rec kayak owners buy what they can afford. The boats are safe when used as intended.
baby boomers
Okay, I misunderstood 
One of the ongoing observations around these parts is just about all the nicest boats belong to people with grey hair.
Not condition
â Last Updated: May-22-06 7:26 PM EST â
I'm not talking about the condition of the boat.
"I was trying to make the point that setting rules by something as arbitrary as length leads to irrational results"
It's not "arbitrary". One could argue over what exact number to use but 14 is "about" right. If you make it too small, you include many inappropriate boats and, if you make it too large, you exclude many appropriate boats. There is no "magic" single number but 14 is pretty close.
They spend a fair amount of effort explaining the characteristics of boats they are "including".
What number would you use? Less than 13.5? What, then, about a 13 foot boat? Etc, etc.
I'd say that 1+ foot in water line length is pretty significant.
Anyway, if someone wanted to use a Merlin LT, and they were capable paddlers, and they really wanted to go on one of their trips, wouldn't they just ask about it?
They are not exactly talking about "unsafe". Anyway, I bet the list is an attempt to deal with people in inappropriate boats who would inconvenience other clients.
It is quite possible that the Merlin LT was excluded by its mere length.
Itâs not at the start
The issues at the start of paddling are like any other boat issue. Mostly, people get into boats on cold water without proper immersion clothing or swimming abilities, which is equally poor judgement whether in a motor boat, sailboat or paddle boat. The risk is more obvious as you get closer to the water, but shit can happen in a motor boat too.
The fun part is really when someone has enough time on the water to feel ready to take just a small risk - like go out on a sunny day that seems calm in big water with less skill or equipment than a big change in weather could make necessary. Then the wind comes up fast and you read stories about their being blown a few miles from where they wanted to be.
Nope - it isnât even most paddlers out there thatâll get caught like that. Itâs just of concern because it is a really bad experience for the one or paddlers that do get caught, and in hindsight it was almost always avoidable with a little more knowledge of likely conditions, skill or better equipment.
I agree that it easily sounds elitist at times to talk about this, but I am not sure what the alternative is to the tone if it is discussed at all. Confidence is a good thing, and the human habit is to have too little or too much, almost never just right. Me included.
Rec boats
Many people paddle rec boats safely. And people kill themselves in âtrueâ sea kayaks.
Any boater should be aware of the risks and safety issues.
I strongly prefer âtrueâ sea kayaks in part because they can do pretty much anything a rec boat can do and are more versitile. My problem is that many people âmake doâ with rec boat when theyâd be better off in a sea kayak because they think thereâs some âruleâ about âbeginnerâ boats.
Still, many people prefer rec boats and thereâs nothing wrong with that. (As long as they are aware of the risks.)
Habitats
really do make a difference. The risks of alligator infested swamps are quite different from that of the coast of northeast USA. Local knowledge of nesting cycles of reptiles is an advantage and a safety issue. One size does not fit all and one craft does not work well everywhere. Cold water is not an issue everywhere.
Carolina
â Last Updated: May-22-06 7:24 PM EST â
"Mine's a Perception Carolina 13.5, on the NO list for sea/touring"
It's a popular boat and there's no reason you can't paddle it safely and enjoyably.
It's on the AKT "no" list because it would probably be quite tedious to use on a long trip for -most- people.
A "real" sea kayak doesn't have to be much more expensive than the Carolina 13.5. So, the comparison of a $150 sewing machine to a $2400 one isn't really meaningful. As an illustration: a Carolina 13.5 (rudder) is $1050 and a Shadow (rudder) is $1430. So, if people want a "real" sea kayak, they should get a "real" sea kayak.
For people who say $1430 is almost 50% more, the Shadow is on sale at one internet site for $1075. My point is that people should be careful not to let price force them to get a boat they don't really want.
actually, there is a guy down here who
owns a long, narrow and fast sea kayak, but surfs in his Carolin 13.5
The âElitistâ Connotation Comes In
by saying a âlooming crisisâ with rec vs seakayaks, implying the former is overselling and inherently dangerous. There is an ingrained perspective and attitude involved.
How can it be a crisis if folks paddle what they have safelyâŚ
sing
Thank you, Sing!
Profit is not the problem
Profit motive is what gives us ANY kayaks to buy. Without it, youâd all get to enjoy self made vessels (like me), unless you have some really amazing friends to do them for you.
The culprit is peopleâs need for instant gratification, their sloth/ignorance regarding learning what they need to, and their tendency to externalize and blame others for anything that might go wrong.
Of course, Iâm a known âelitistâ or âholy rollerâ or whatever (ask JackL and many others) so my opinions can just be dismissed, even though I started in not just a rec boat, but an inflatable rec boat - that I took in the ocean! Then a big plastic SOT that I paddled amid commercial traffic in a major port and also on the ocean, then a narrow SINK with no lessons, also in the ocean, then built my own SOFâŚ
There were some "accelerated learning days in there that changed things/assumptions, but nothing I couldnât handle myself/wasnât prepared for - or required outside intervention⌠so far (an small but important caveat).
I understand rec boats can be OK and have their place, so please donât lump me with any (probably imaginary) no rec/no SOT folks. But they are what they are. I know that from paddling them and watching/talking to others who do, not from looking down my nose at them.
I canât help cringing when I see obviously unprepared paddlers with zero ability to self rescue out on the water. I usually leave them to their fun (with warm and relatively calm waters here theyâll likely be OK, assuming some minimal swimming ability) and I donât preach at them - but I also wonât tell them kayaking is for everyone and thereâs nothing they need to work on. If Iâm asked, I tell them what Iâve learned - partly thought direct experience, and largely from other paddlers who were good enough to do the same for me. I wish we could get the rec/fun/whatever paddlers to come to skill sessions and play with various rescues like the sea kayakers do - but itâs just a different mentality. Some of the âsea kayakersâ suffer from it too - and prefer to trust to their luck an fellow paddlers instead of being able to rely on themselves.
As Jed said -lead by example. Trouble with that is any example that shows the skills or gear of some paddler to be insufficient for safe paddling in some venue will be labeled âelitistâ.