Whatever—NM
One of the best paddlers I know…
– Last Updated: May-22-06 10:20 PM EST –
... is 74. Paddles skinny boats and has quite a bag of tricks for rolls and rescues. He's not gung ho, or training/gear obsessed. Very mild mannered, competent, and truly loves paddling.
Those last posts were lame. More excuses for "whatever" behavior. Every time you see "elitist" used you can be sure it's just being used as a weak diversionary tactic.
Yes, everyone paddles differently, and in different places, and so some may not need the same level of gear and skills as some others. That doesn't make anyone's advice/experience regarding skills and gear irrelevant or "elitist". No one is too "elite" to learn from, at any level - and visa versa.
No crystal ball but
True I don’t have a crystal ball and can’t predict the future either. But a huge number of chain stores selling rec boats to folks in our area has led to a rapid flood of paddlers. A good number are middle aged and up, not great condition, many never have done anything athletic much, attracted to being on the water, in boats with no floatation, high seat backs, few skills. We are in an area of the Northeast with cold waters, winds that sweep lengthwise along our lakes for maximum fetch and developed wave action.
Like the advertisment sooner or later you own General. Maybe not a crisis, but when I see divorced dads taking out their 6 year old sons on a huge lake in 45 degree water with cotton clothes noi pfd, no floatation, not even a windbreaker and a 3 mile crossing winds of 25 mph, cripes. The fellow asks if he can come along towing his son in a white water boat behind his boat. Yikes.
Profit IS part of the problem
Or I should say cost with no motivation to be concerned about anything else. The customer is ignorant. The seller is greedy or indifferent. I really don’t believe that people in general, if properly informed, will risk their lives in order to purchase a cheap kayak and ignore information. I have more faith in people than that.
Idiots
Evans, there are always gonna be idiots, no matter what the sport. I may not be an expert sea kayaker - that’s not what I want to do with my boat (calm water, bird watching). But I do have experience with another sport in that I am a ski patroller. As patrollers, we deal with (and help to educate) a lot of unprepared newbies, so I can understand your concerns - no lessons, wet cotton clothing, ill-fitting equipment, going on trails they are in no way capable of handling safely. I guess the thing bothering me the most was the sweeping generalization of baby boomers in rec boats equaling looming disaster. It’s like saying entry-level skis shouldn’t be sold because people who don’t know how to ski yet might get hurt. Everyone’s got to start somewhere and deserves to do so without being insulted. The more people who fall in love with either of these fine sports, the better, and no matter what skis they’re on or what boat they’re in, they’ll enjoy it more and do it more safely by taking lessons. There, we are in complete agreement.
So do you also blame…
– Last Updated: May-22-06 10:30 PM EST –
... car makers/dealers for people who don't know how to friggin' drive?
I'll say it again: Personal responsibility. Focusing on anything less ultimately buys us more litigation and legislation. Makes for happy lawyers and politicians (same animal) and sad paddlers.
Not all customers are ignorant. Some have access to Paddling.net!
Assumptions
Don’t assume formal lessons are required for basic safety skills either. Plenty of sources of info and most of it can quite effectively be learned and practiced solo.
Why is everyone alway looking outside themselves for everything? That is the downside of our consumer culture - not profit motives.
bias against rec boats
I admit to quite a bit of bias against rec boats and it primarily comes down to the lack of floatation issue. But it isn’t that I think all those people should be in sea kayaks; I think that most people would be better off (oh! value judgement!) in a SOT. With a SOT you have floatation, can get extrodinary primary stability have a reasonable chance of self rescue (if you hold onto the thing) and can have a lot of fun for not a lot of money.
Ok, I don’t have or have never had a SOT, but I just can’t think of much that a rec boat would be better at. I was doing safety boat at our local paddlefest and I think the people having the most fun were the ones on the shortest fatest SOT. They were also the ones I worried about the least.
Actually I more or less agree with most every post in this thread. With increasing rec boat usage there will be increasing numbers of people who take them out in inappropriate conditions. Same is true of all boats. Yes people can get over their heads in more expensive sea kayaks but there are a lot more options when they do than in rec boats. I do worry that increasing sales at box stores will decrease the number of purchasers who are told about basic safety issues or pointed to places to get training. Yes it is personal responsibility & judgement but you can’t make a rational decision if you don’t have a clue what the risks and limitations are.
It’s also spring
So the northern half the country that, for most, stayed in pools or just skiied because 38 degree water isn’t a lot of fun to roll in is now out in groups contemplating bigger paddles. (I know there are hardy souls on this board that are not deterred by those temps, but I doubt it’s the majority of paddlers.) And the air is warming up - somewhere anyway if not in upstate NY this month - so new paddlers are going out and buying the boat that they were contemplating last fall but no reason to spend the money with winter coming.
The experiential core of this thread is that there are paddlers out there in boats that they couldn’t re-enter on the water if needed. Is it a problem if someone can swim back to shore in the conditions in which they paddle? Less so at least. Is it a new issue? No. Are there more than last year, or two years ago? Probably. How do you want to characterize that? Very much a matter of individual perspective.
just chimming in
the rec boat is necessary. Too often I’ve had friends over and then the offer and acceptance of a paddling session. Many of them looked at the Nordkapp or the Looksha II and said no way! (Rightfully so)…the Acadia, the Swifties, and now the Kestrel are their introduction to paddling. In ham radio we have ‘elmers’ and i’m thinking in paddling the more elmering we do (assuming we are competent paddlers in our own right) the better. Which is to say point prospective paddlers to p.net. Have more p.net get-to-gethers and at those get-to-gethers maybe offer a structured learning environment for at least part of the weekend. Offer your skills to those who want to learn.
Fat guy in a rec boat!
Hey that’s me you’re talking about. By some charts I could be 1003’s overweight. And the even more scarey part for you folks it that I take my rec boat all over the place. I really think they are fine for anyplace an open canoe is fine.
Ponds and slow creeks? - no problem!
Surf and Whitewater? - you bet! - bring a helmet and have secured floatbags and a bailer. Like most modern OC1’s you’ll like and electric bilge pump the best.
Long day or touring trips? - It’s all good unless you are trying to keep up with longer boats, then you’ll hate you boat and yourself. Let’s face it most rec boats travel at 3.5 mph or less. 20 miles in a day in a rec boat is an accomplishment.
Rescues? - Easy in a group as any for any canoe. Empty the boat quickly with a T rescue, then help the swimmer in.
Self Rescue - Not as easy as any kayak. It’s like an open canoe. If you have the float bags secured and a good bailer, then a paddle float rescue is quick and easy. If you don’t have float bags and a good bailer then you should never get too far from shore.
Even though it’s a rec boat and should have float bags just like all other paddlecraft.
The only thing that bothers me about the big box stores selling these is that they don’t even stock floatation bags.
I have to agree.
I started in an Old Town Rush. I stuffed pool noodles in the front and back and finally got a float bag for the rear. I have an Ocean Kayak Scupper Pro also and frankly, there is nothing that I can do in the Rush that I couldn’t do in the Scupper Pro and I can do it better.
My recommendation here in Florida for a recreational kayak is a SOT. Makes sense for this part of the world.
Paul
Well said NM
I do blame care makers who …
advertise their vehicles in such a way as to mislead car buyers about the vehicle’s capabilities. This is especially true for S.U.V.'s. You do get a manual with your car and there are warnings about possibly dangers (like air bags and kids). You get none of this when you buy a kayak.
One size fits all
Maybe this is the problem. We try to teach skills that were developed for sea kayaking by sea kayakers to all paddlers. Some of those skills can be adapted well in many cases, but others cannot. No doubt a paddle float reentry is easier on lower decked sea kayaks. Maybe we neeed to teach sea/touring kayakers a different skill set from recreational paddlers and quit trying to fit recreational paddlers into the sea kayaking mold.
I could go on, but the bottom line is I think our teaching approach may be the problem. We are trying to force one size fits all lessons on two or more very different types of craft intended for different purposes. The problem is us - those of us who try to teach, not the boats, or manufacturers, or sellers, or buyers. OK, it can partially be the sellers fault for not knowing products they sell and the buyers fault for not educating themselves.
Asbestos shields up
~wetzool
And account for the paddler
The heaviest guy in the world has proportionately more strength in the upper body to overcome things like lack of deck rigging etc than the same age and out of shape woman. It’s just how we are made and where the concentration of weight is. That beer gut is still more usefully high than a woman’s butt when you have to start sliding things over the top of the boat.
For example, I’ve worked with fairly typical older women paddlers who couldn’t do a paddle float re-entry, or any over the top re-entry, without some deck rigging, stirrups and if on the wrong side and still needing some help from another paddler. Doing what is pictured above in an unrigged rec boat, which must be happening by just holding the paddle shaft against the coaming, is not feasible for these paddlers.
And there is a demographic factor - the people who have the bucks and the time to get boats and use them are older boomers. Who arrive at the sport with at least a few old injuries and are at a time in their life where the battle of the bulge has gotten to be a pretty aggressive fight.
So yeah, some of these folks could much more easily perform these skills in a true sea kayak with lower decks etc. But that also means that a 45 plus year old back is hauling a 16 ft plus boat off and on a rack atop a car. It’s easy to see the appeal of a high decked, shorter Hurricane boat in that lightweight synthetic material.
My husband and I lack a choice because of our time on the ocean each year - we have to have at least one long, heavy PITA boat to handle for the big water and rocks in Maine. But most people don’t have that consideration quite so dominant.
a different skill set
– Last Updated: May-23-06 10:58 AM EST –
Good observation. I was thinking last Thursday sitting in my Romany and working with the woman in that Perception barge, how different approaches might be more effective as her paddler to boat volume ratio was SO different than mine.
Probably many of the same skills but adjusted or different techniques for those in rec boats and other less responsive/suitable kayaks.
Design for women
OK, so why do rec boats have to be so deep? if you’re not going out in waves, why all that freeboard? There’s a decent selection of small sea kayaks these days, but I don’t see many rec boats designed for small/light paddlers.
As you’ve said before, it’s not just a matter of scaling down an “average” design. You need to accomodate wider hips, shorter legs, shorter torso and arms, and a lower center of gravity.
no insult meant insult taken anyhow?
No insults here from me, up front or between the lines. Sorry if being blunt and direct comde across like an insult to you perhaps.
Truth is I don’t actually feel there are any bad boats. They just all do different things well and others less well. I have posted here on the problems intrinsic to the skinny long boats also.
If you are going out as a leader, guide, or just group member and a bunch of paddlers with you have boats they cannot get back into, and insist that is OK because they can always depend on the leader and you to help them and the group encounters a storm and these folks need repeated recoveries and they cannot help you god forbid you need it, that is the purpose of this thread. Not to insult. We have spent several hundred community hours of free instruction, that is right! I am an instructor and others who generously assist me do this for nothing. Not blowing the horn here, just note not looking to preach to ANYONE. We simply share passion, skills, and fun. Here, though it may be good to share the concerns and stimulate thinking. It is how I learn. Thanks for your thoughts!!!